Breaking: Obama to delay release of detainee-abuse photos
We were wondering this morning whether Robert Gibbs' noncommittal responses yesterday signaled that President Obama was getting cold feet about allowing the release of the latest round of detainee-abuse photos.
WASHINGTON - Defense and military officials tell NBC News that President Obama will seek to delay the release of hundreds of photos which reportedly depict the abuse of prisoners by U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan.
White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs is expected to announce Obama's decision.
The Pentagon has said it will release the pictures this month.
Gen. Ray Odierno, the top U.S. military commander in Iraq met with Obama at the White House Tuesday to ask the administration not to release the photos. Defense officials say Odierno is "vehemently opposed" to the release because he fears it could create a widespread "backlash" against military forces in both war zones.
According to one official, "It would put a bullseye on the backs of our forces."
According to military officials many of the photos are similar to the infamous prisoner abuse photos out of Abu Ghraib prison, but some of these photos reportedly include mug shots of prisoners who appear to have been badly beaten during their capture or interrogation.
The photos were gathered in the course of dozens of military investigations of prisoner abuse between 2001 and 2006.
At this point, it looks like Obama plans to appeal the case to the Supreme Court, and if they lose there (as they have at all previous levels), they won't have any choice about releasing them.
In the meantime, they'll now be using up their political capital to defend Dick Cheney and his merry band of torturers. Now, that's a lovely prospect, isn't it? I'm sure Cheney will repay him generously for the effort.
It would be nice, though, if someone took the time to point out once again that the very fears about Arab reaction to these photos, and the consequences for our soldiers in the field -- not to mention the radicalizing effect it has, effectively creating future terrorists -- are exactly the main reason why torture doesn't, can't, and never will keep us safe. And why Cheney and Co. utterly failed to actually keep Americans safe, not just during their tenure, but for the foreseeable future.
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[We know. An email has been sent-Sitemonitor]
me-oww!
So the media screwed up and it didn't happen?
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Does Obama know what a campaign promises means..
Where is Obama's transparent and open government...
Also what ever happen to our constitution , bill of rights and our democracy..
Bush must not have been the only one which thought our constituion was nothing be a d.. piece of paper and could do as they d... well please..
None
I gotta agree with Obama. We all know abuses happened in Abu Ghraib. The photos we saw 4-5 years ago confirm it. Why put in our troops in more danger than they already face?
That's kinda what Gibbs just said. There is concern that the photos would put our troops in more harm in Iraq and Afghanistan. I see merit it that too. I know I sure don't want to see them. I don't need to see the pictures to know that awful things happened. We know they did.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
were put in more danger when the Bush administrations decided to torture pows. These photos should really be used as part of a case against those who authorized the illegal use of torture.
This reason from the WH smells strongly of cop-out.
And they probably will be used as part of the case. Autopsey and crime scene photos are used as evidence every day in criminal cases, yet more often than not they are not made public.
I imagine that eventually they will go public, so for anybody that just has to see them, have a little patience.
. . . . by the prior administration to justify the invasion of Iraq has been turned upside-down. No WMDs; no terrorist connection; and now it becomes obvious that we committed torture notwithstanding Bush's condemnation of the torture rooms and human rights violations he cited as the moral basis for the invasion.
can we be at peace.....
(or so thinks the right in their Orwellian twistedness)
because it was done in our name, they are walking away from prosecuting the architects of the crimes.
Now the troops, they signed up for that shit. It's part of the agreement. The only thing putting our troops in more danger is leaving them in the theatre, where we are not wanted, and not prosecuting war crimes against our own criminals.
me-oww!
Who says they are walking away?
The troops perform a duty to protect us and our nation. We as citizens, have a duty to the troops ourselves by supporting them and not putting them in harm's way unless absolutely neccesary.
Edit: Bush broke that trust, blame him and his cohorts but don't blame the military
Bring them Home.
And spend the trillions here.
No more war for war profiteers' bennefits.
Put DICK CHENEY in jail before he blow up something.. Again!
Obama's Vietnam will be Afganistan!
and/or those performing the deed. I do not support them or either illegal, unwarranted invasion and subsequent occupation of either country.
Until we get it out of our thick skulls that we have to support killers, we will always face this problem.
And it was never 'absolutely necessary' to put them in harm's way, in either case. I knew this from the outset, as did others, including the previous admin.
I don't know why you feel it necessary to lecture me on your perceived duties as a US citizen. I consider myself a citizen of the world, which leaves me with a larger duty -- to keep things peaceful.
"Who says they are walking away?" I don't see any prosecutions gearing up here. DO you think if I'd robbed a bank, there'd be months, years even of hemming and hawing, daily equivocations over the legality of it, dithering? I don't see any big wigs in or near the the dock.
me-oww!
Lesson learned: If you have evidence, suppress it.
Bush was recently connected with orders that went to Abu Gahrib. If you are from outside of the US, this looks like a cover up, plain and simple. They don't look at Obama's decision and say to themselves "Kudos America for maintaining your exceptional image worldwide."
The people attacking our troops are already pissed off. They're not going to become more effective at killing because they see these photos. This is a Repuke argument.
Man that guy gets around, Fascist, Communist, Islamist, Dijon loving Socialist. Now Obama's a Republican. That's the worst one yet.
robbie above didn't say Obama was a Republican. he said that the argument that you can't release these photos because it will "hurt the troops" is a Republican argument. which it is! this is EXACTLY what they said about Abu Ghraib. glad to see some around here have signed up to be their echo.
I guess it was only bad when Republicans did it.
and were they RIGHT?
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
I just spent an hour reading comments on HuffPo, where the unquestioning support for this move by Obama is overwhelming and attacks on the ACLU are popping up like weeds.
Democrats deride Republicans for their unthinking loyalty to the GOP leadership, then do the exact same thing and label it change. The crimes of detainee torture & abuse were horrific, but they're (ostensibly) in the past & the world knows who was responsible for it. The cover-up is on-going & each day it's perpetuated increases the complicity of the current Administration.
It's just beyond me why this is so difficult for Democrats to understand. Our so-called enemies around the world aren't stupid or gullible & they are just as capable of recognizing a spin-filled sack of bullshit as the average American. "They" don't hate us for our freedoms, "they" hate us for our wars, our greed, our hypocrisy and our lies.
exactly , had i said it though i get a cold shoulder from the droids, but you nailed it!
I agree with you.
Good afternoon, tyree. I hope you know that I would never give you a cold shoulder. Hope you are well :)
Sweeping under carpet (as we speak); go shopping, enjoy distractions, forget any of it ever happend. Have a nice day.
Spin spin spin.
far left loon >.<
hi calgary im ok hope the same for you!
Exactly right. Thank you.
Or as Chuck (that used to post here) said: "They don't hate us for our freedoms: they hate us because we're assholes." I dig.
far left loon >.<
President Obama has made the right decision. Also, if we already got the worst photos in Abu Ghraib round one, the release of new photos that some say are not nearly as horrific, might act as a mitigating factor that would lessen the opinion of the American people that the Bush criminals need to be prosecuted. Let the investigations begin. We don't need anymore photos.
We need to expose the crimes until they are a scandal. The American people only responds to Advertising.
We need both the photos AND the investigations!
There's already a bullseye on the backs of American forces for illegally conducting war in Iraq and Afghanistan and making illegal bombing strikes in Pakistan. The impact of the pictures won't outweigh what the troops are doing where they are among the citizens of those countries.
No matter what the generals say, I believe the "reason" is Obama's reluctance to call for the prosecution of Bush administration war-criminals. The release of the photos would increase the pressure by American citizens to prosecute. The pictures could also be used by other countries who will prosecute them if the US won't. I'm sure the Obama administration doesn't want to release anything that would further support the prosecution of Bush administration officials abroad.
Furthermore, I thought these photos HAD to be released to the ACLU under a court order in response to a lawsuit they brought. Why does the administration have any say at all in what happens to them now?
Because an international crime has been committed by the United States and we need to deal with it through the criminal justice system.
Remember. We were torturing individuals who had no charges formally brought, no lawyers, no trials, no formal sentencing. Some people died during torture which is murder. Some people who were murdered might have actually been innocent.
This is a mighty stain on our political fabric and it must be cleansed through the laws of the land. Part of the law is that the ACLU has a right to request these photos through the Freedom of Information Act.
I disagree with President Obama and feel he was swayed in a major manner by the letter sent to him by Lieberman and Graham. (Remember those guys? McCain's sidekicks?) I believe it puts our soldiers in more danger to have them in the Middle East at all! Our military adventures there should stop and we should be working with all the countries there diplomatically.
We have a better chance of securing the respect of the world community through seeking the truth and securing a just solution to the illegalities some in our government pursued.
The whole world knows that the CIA admitted destroying critical video evidence on torture. Yet more crimes committed.
Obama needs to stop running from the past, be brave and confront it, deal with it through the criminal justice system THEN move on.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
Is there anything more damming than the fact that the CIA had to destroy the torture videos? They were obviously scared shitless the reaction that their release would unleash.
"It was the right thing to do. But by all means let's keep it secret." (Josh Marshall)
Why are DFH bloggers and commenters practically the only people making these points? You'd think Cheney and his allies would have the sense to shut their traps, or at least feel embarrassed by their shat bed. But apparently, good judgement isn't their strong suit.
The fact that Cheney won't STFU about this, and continues to try to justify it, is one of the main reasons why these policies must be prosecuted. Looking forward, under these circumstances, you can guarantee it will happen again under another administration if it goes unpunished.
Would you feel the same if it were Bush not releasing the photos???
far left loon >.<
bwhaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaa!
the President is right, I will surely approve of the decision. The decision to not release the photos was absoultley the correct course of action and I appluad him for it.
Even Hannity, last night, said it was a great move.
NOT prosecuting a SERIES OF CRIMES is making it WORSE!
Who, besides dumb Americans, are going to pretend that we didn't torture people for sadistic purposes, torture people to death and abuse others who are not charged with any crime, sodomize children - that's pedophilia, and pretend that this was not an orchestrated program that started in GITMO?
Release the photos and prosecute those who made it happen. That means the torturers themselves and the policy makers above them.
Gibbs just said that the president didn't feel the govt. has made the strongest case to the court to keep the photos from being released and he wants his own lawyers to try to make that case to the court.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
"forbidden" pics don't get shown. It would be the final nail in our coffin.
The pictures would have been already released.
"When are we going to stop trying to tell elected officials what to do. Our job is to spend the taxpayers' money the best way we can." -- Tommy Watkins, Justice of the Peace, Crawford County, Arkansas
Just sayin'.
(they would have been sequestered for "internal review")
So it's better to bury your head in the sand???
To get better, you first have to admit there's a problem.
far left loon >.<
it's the acts that the photos capture...
To say GIs are endangered by these fotos is like saying s smokers are endangered by non-smoking ads portraying cancerous lungs...
i completely agree, and a good analogy woody
this was a bad move by obama
This way we get to pretend the acts didn't/aren't happening and I'm sure eventually the sheeple will have forgotten the release of the other set of pictures.
Not only that, but the idiots that denied that ever happening to begin with can continue with their delusions instead of being forced to face the fact the US isn't that nice of a country in their foreign policy and so they won't pressure Obama to do anything and Obama can continue with his "let's look forward" bs.
...although probably not as severe as projected. It is the CIA that is in danger. That agency should be defunded, dissolved and disgraced forever. Naturally they (CIA) don't care for the idea.
right now and not only are we outnumbered by a large margin but not wanted and despised. Not a pretty scenario one "spark" and that's it.
It's insanity no matter how you see it.
None of us knows what that spark may be.
The spark that could lead to an escalation of violence could very well be the belief that the Obama Administration isn't as good as its word.
The spark could be the latest confirmation that our government is more interested in protecting our own than seeking truth or justice.
The spark could be the realization that the Obama Administration is aiding & abetting the criminal cover-up initiated by the Bush Administration.
The spark could come if we, as a nation, do nothing to prosecute those responsible for crimes that we have prosecuted non-Americans for.
We have become a nation of self-deluding hypocrites & the whole world IS watching.
And the "spark" could begin here at home, too.
..........at home is building. The continued repression of the truth is fueling the biggest homeland 'spark' that this country has ever seen since the civil war. Another civil war?? An oppressed, dumbed-down population will find a way to even the playing field. The bankster/gangsters learned that from the south's carpetbagging backlash, but $$$$$$$ rules the schriveled minds(?) of the 1%ers, who always have to push for stealing more $$$$$$$ from the poor.
to our troops, and I think we'd do the world a solid as well, if we PROSECUTED OUR OWN WAR CRIMINALS. From the top and working our way down.
Sure the prez is a smart guy. He doesn't want to throw the truth, the evidence up there, and continue to walk away from prosecuting guys who were responsible for these crimes. This largesse has given the Clowns in opposition time to be dreaming up new names to officially call the democrats now, instead of HELPING THE COUNTRY, or assisting in their own war crimes defence.
I mean, is it any wonder to people why they hate us for 'our freedoms?' Because 'Our Freedoms' = to the rest of the world "I can do whutevah I want."
me-oww!
does NOT want to show these horrific photos. But they will if they are made to.
certainly and while they are at it lets supress thoes photos of children being sodomised by our interigators to get thier mothers to spill thier guts!
this infuriates me. We have a right to see what has been done in our name. It's time to prosecute in our name now. We have the proof, and apparently, it is uglier than they want us to know.
me-oww!
don't kid yourself thanks to Bush. The radical Muslim World doesn't forgive or forget.
We paid for it with our tax dollars!!!
It's even worse!!!
I say this. We paid for the damn cameras and film that took the freakin' pictures! It's every Americans right and RESPONSIBILITY to witness to what has been done in not only our names and without our knowledge or consent but with the sweat of our labor as well!
So many crimes have been committed it's hard to keep track of them all!!! Plus how many crimes are we yet unaware of because a meaningful criminal investigation is being stonewalled by the Republicans AND!! the Democrats??!
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Support the troops. Send them Home!
Of course they are WORSE THAN YOU CAN IMAGINE. They've already released the Abu Grhaib ones, so if they are more of the same, there's nothing new. I suspect they are NOT more of the same. They are horrific and will destroy your faith in your country.
far left loon >.<
"They are horrific and will destroy your faith in your country."
I will never lose faith in my country...but losing faith in our leaders...yeah...I could see that happening.
don't think those pics wouldn't go over to well.
the Government appeals...loses...and the Administration can say that they are required to obey the law.
Look at the big picture...some of this is being done to alleviate the damage done by the Bush Admin expansion of the powers of the Executive Branch. The branches of government are out of balance...and need to be put back in order.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
and all the king's men
couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again.
Too late. Both side are too corrupted.
last one to leave democracy, please blow out the candle.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
...bring them home.
That idea would be too intelligent.
NOBODY 2012
Many pictures have been shown over the years by those from RED Cross and the pictures from the troops in Iraq. Photo's as those sent home with injuries were pictured for legal cases. You would think you were looking at the Nazi days. I heard Liz Cheney support her Father's torture policy. I wondered she has 3 daughters and 2 sons and would see like to see them tortured like the kids in the photo's. Woman were raped but then that's polciy in America, Texas and Alaska. To keep the secrets of those we tortured to death, we listed them as mission. Oh we decided to leak one name we shipped to our best friend Libya Dictator Gaddafi. Yes who know Bush/Cheney might even be friends North Korea and others listed as Axis of Evil. Talk about making fools of Americans no wonder the Foreign Leaders are laughing so much as the US believed the bull of that Axis of Evil stuff. I guess Bush/Cheney say Americans are so stupid they will believe anything.
of America by the media has worked on a large portion of Ameicans.
From afar, it looks like MOST.
far left loon >.<
..being abused, that everyone knows happened, knows the pictures exist and now won't see them make our troops any less safe?
BHO, 1st Dude, the cat is out of the bag! Might as well come clean. The United States and its leaders and agents tortured people. The sooner we own up to that, the sooner the healing can begin. The terrorists and a large part of the Arab world already hates us so much they're willing to send sons and daughters to us and our allies with explosives strapped to their chests. Putting war criminals in jail and getting the W out of Iraq will help polish our image and re-build our status in the world. Come on, so simple a republican could do it!
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
I'm beginnging to believe it will never happen. Our government will never officially own up to it. It's too shameful.
..there are still a lot of Americans "on the fence" about whether we tortured or not OR should torture or not coming into this equation. That is, public opinion is still very mixed on this issue. OK, but torture IS illegal, the Red Cross said we tortured and the suspects should stand trial. Maybe the pictures will be (probably are) horrible enough that an overwhelming majority of the American public will side with many on this site to go after the war criminals. On the other hand, keeping the pictures from the public insures it won't happen.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
Just like all those pictures of the war in Iraq brought home the horrors of that war to the American people.*
*not.
You have to read these studies and surveys closely. A survey that says "do you support enhanced techniques if they get good information" will get you somewhere around a 50/50 split. But of course, that is a false question in two ways. 1) It's torture, not 'enhanced interrogation', and 2) you don't get good info out of it, and there is no real evidence anywhere to the contrary.
If you ask "do you support the United States practicing torture on its prisoners?" you get something much closer to 70/30.
The public isn't on the fence about the wrongness of torture. But they are easily fooled also. People aren't sure it happened because the government lies so damn much, and because the media lies even more. There is still a "debate" in the media as to whether we even tortured or not! Once all the facts are out here, you will find overwhelming public disgust at what was done in our name from 2001-20__
The reason you have laws and a Constitution is to prevent public opinion from running your country.
far left loon >.<
The pictures are being shown around the world, just not here. It isn't the troops that are being protected, it's the butts of the past admin that are being protected.
Don't be fooled, the pictures are ut there for the world, just not for the US audience.
If you know where these photos exist outside the U.S. please share.
Wow, really? You care to supply a link to said pictures then? I mean if the cat's out of the bag...by all means, post it. Personnally, I think yer talking out yer sleeve.
Although I would like the photos released for moral and informational purposes, I can see how it is a good political choice for Obama to try and stop their release. Obama has said all along (as have many others) that torture by the U.S. is a recruiting tool for terrorists and keeps us less safe and subjects our soldiers around the world to greater risk of being tortured. Therefore, showing more graphic pictures of such torture and its effects is itself a powerful and inflammatory part of the recruiting tool and would itself tend to make it more likely that our soldiers would be be tortured if they were captured. Second, if, as has been reported, the Supreme Court is likely to rebuff the Obama Administration's request not to release the photos, then Obama's ass will be covered if the Pentagon is then forced to release the photos (just like I believe Obama is keeping Gates as Defense Secretary for similar ass-covering regarding Iraq).
I know this sounds very cynical, but that's politics.
Therefore, showing more graphic pictures of such torture and its effects is itself a powerful and inflammatory part of the recruiting tool
Especially if the torturers are allowed to escape the consequences of their illegal acts.
If Obama is doing anything to shield Bush, Cheney, or anyone else from proscution for war crimes, I would be more than disturbed. I don't think the issue of releasing these photos goes to that issue. Even if these photos were to be evidence in such war crimes trials, they could be used in the court proceeding and still kept private. The release of these photos seems to be about the court of public opinion, and, as I originally wrote, I think they should be released for that important reason alone.
I really, really am not cynical enough to believe (YET) that Obama is doing this for Cheney. Cheney might benefit and that sucks, but my point remains.
I'm just superstitious enough to hedge my bets.
I have no idea why Obama would want to HELP BushCo get away with these WAR CRIMES. What have they done for him? They painted him as Satan, Hitler, Saddam, Osama and Dr. Doom all wrapped in one during the election. Hell, Cheney keeps badmouthing him today. Barack and Joe should shut Dick's big mouth and bring him and his buddies into court for a little chat.
NOBODY 2012
I get what you're saying, and I think you may be right.
However, Obama earned a lot of credit from me when his first act upon taking office was to close Gitmo. While this reversal may be a sop to the military brass (who are supposedly furious), it also damages Obama's anti-torture credentials. Better, I say, to put everything out there on the table and make a clean breast of it (to mix metaphors).
Also, I suspect Obama may be concerned that when the American public sees photos of (according to Mike Malloy) children being tortured in front of their mothers by U.S. military, that the American public will call for the prosecution of Bush and Cheney. And for whatever reasons (not wanting Congress to spend its energy on hearings, etc.) Obama has been shielding Bush and Cheney from this.
"The Good and Great Must Ever Shun, That Reckless and Abandoned One
Who Stoops to Perpetrate a Pun," Lewis Carroll, 'The Three Voices.'
i believe thats called , obstruction of justice!
And he needs to stop shielding them. Those big boys have been shielded all their lives. It's time for them to pay the piper, and Obama needs to step off from that.
me-oww!
close it...
Obama earned a lot of credit from me when his first act upon taking office was to close Gitmo.
It's still doing business. And even if he does eventually, sorta, semi-demi close it, there are still gonna be illegal detentions, torture, etc...
you folks gotta stop trustin' what you read in the SCUM...
to keep us distracted from the surge and worsening situation in Afghanistan. Does the MIC not own practically all the media these days?
Man we are screwed up.
PAKISTAN!
And next up. Shopping in Pakistan with the troops.
I heard a BBC radio report today talking about how the Taliban have seized something like 20-30% of Pakistan where the terrain is similar to Afghanistan. Lots of caves and mountains etc.
If Obama thinks he's going to keep the military killing innocent civilians in Afghanistan and Pakistan with the cowardly "drones" they are using (you know, where the "kill shots" are made through computerized-style video game-like centers hundreds of miles away), we may be biting off more than we can chew.
The Pakistani military could do something NUTS! and a nuclear conflagration could begin!
It's time to pull out all our troops in the Middle East and pursue diplomatic solutions to the problems there.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
You are too polite, by half...
What we really and truly and everlastingly are is ...
FUCKED!
will be released...officially or unofficially...they will be released.
Just a matter of time.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
time arrives they will have been destroyed in an "accidental fire" or something caused by a faulty wiring circuit or such.
you mean something like the collapse of WTC tower 7.
or accidental small explosion after hours caused by a faulty heater when the building wasn't occupied.
President Obama,
Do the right and just thing...you can possibly make this horrible situation worse.
Don't eat the shit the Bush crime family left you.
Here's a great audio interview from KPFA in Berkeley on Bonnie Faulkner's show regarding "The Bush Crime Family: Family of Secrets":
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article2...
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
The pictures are hardly going to make a shit of difference to how much the US is loathed. Everyone knows the US tortured. This attempt to stifle the evidence is a far more potent anger driver than the pictures would be.
Let the truth come out. Cheney and Bush deserve to be put in prison, and these photos, as hard on the eyes and moral sensitivities as they are, may just do that.
To argue that they would further put our troops at risk is really quite myopic. The Muslim world over there already KNOWS what we did to them.
This is a double super secret reverse psychology play where Obama objects to their release knowing they'll be released anyway! He's still our messiah and don't you question that!
.... that's a political tactic (cynical, yes, I know) that happens in Washington every day. For example, all those Senators who vote for a bill, or a version of the bill, knowing that it won't be the final version and they can vote against a later version, etc. etc. I spent over 17 years in this world. It is a form of trying to have it both ways, it is cynical politics, but it has zero to do with thinking someone is a messiah or being any kind of -oid.
the last refuge of those that supported criminals.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
My point was that anyone, especially an Obama supporter, will be told that he's not actually George Bush-like, he's doing this to be a champion of all that's true and righteous. His motivations are not to be questioned even if his actions make him look like a Repuke goof.
I called Obama "cynical" for doing this, and I think it's a wrong move morally and in terms of serving the First Amendment to try to block the photos. While I do NOT agree with Obama's motivations, my point was that I can see how it may be a smart move SOLELY from a political standpoint.
"smart" for a calculating politicain just looking to get re-elected, but as the torch bearer of "a new kind of politics", he's failing miserably
I meant "smart" in terms of winning the short-term political battle against the Republicans over torture. The result of releasing the photos, I believe, will be more public opinion against torture. Not showing graphic images of war and torture tends to make people not as averse to those things. That was certainly the Bush strategy in Iraq. We saw almost no graphic battle footage, or footage of U.S. casualties (compare that to the graphic footage from Vietnam). We didn't get to see flag-draped caskets being off-loaded at Dover Air Force Base, or being buried at military funerals. And we didn't get to see the Abu Ghraib torture photos until they were leaked.
You seem to have a strong anti-Obama bias while at the same time criticizing others for having a strong pro-Obama bias.
and one who promised "change"
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Torture and murder in our name is a serious matter that will affect this Nation for years to come. Also don't conveniently lose sight of the fact that this is Bush & company's creation and responsibility.
You know, I haven't lost sight of the fact that this is a creation of BushCo. That is made especially apparent to me as Obama, Pelosi, Reid, and other Democrats make excuses for PROSECUTING the sonsabitches! Obama needs to, at least, act like he's something other than an establishment politician with his first duty being to the state.
...isn't a joking matter robbie. This horror will adversely affect all of us. Blaming "Obama, Pelosi, Reid and the Democrats" instead of the actual perpetrators without obtaining all of the facts simply isn't right.
..get off their asses and begin prosecuting the real criminals, they are complicit. There is no shade of gray here. We are ALL complicit until that happens. We are a nation of torturers.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
and I know this fact just destroys the beautiful minds of the Democrat holier-than-thou's, but their complicity makes them war criminals
They are all complicit. I don't care how much you like any one (or all) of them: they are all complicit.
far left loon >.<
I wonder if it has occurred to anyone else that beyond a small number of true progressives, including most posters here, that there really is not any difference between the two established parties. Both are controlled by the M-I-C or some other monied shadow group. Hows that for cynacism.
Hows that for cynacism.
Tough for me to dismiss out of hand, that's for sure. Wot a woild...
I'm just superstitious enough to hedge my bets.
...about the cover-up being worse than the crime?
The pictures will come out eventually. Isn't it better to own up to it now rather than later? At least it would appear that Obama is not trying to hide anything and it may jump start a move to prosecute war crimes.
IMO, this is our only way to start repairing our reputation around the world.
we won't repair our reputation by releasing horrific photos. That will only start by indicting and imprisoning those who carried out and authorized these crimes. Unfortunately, the political will is not there to do this and, precisely because the public has been shielded from the true horrors of the iraq war, the public will is not there.
Yes, indeed, I do remember how the attempted cover-up of the Iran-Contra deal backfired, but left Cheney smelling like a rose. And, I do believe that it was the Watergate Cover-Up that sunk St. Raygun. Keep up the cover-up, then, boys.
Since the right opposes everything Obama, they will now clamor for the release of these photos, thus ensuring the war crime trials that will surely follow. Snickers.
... requires the release of these photos, which then leads to war crimes trials for Bush Administration officials (again, a cynical political win-win for Obama). Perhaps the Court will magically find a way not to force their release, just like it (with even fewer ultra-conservative justices) magically found a way to stop that vote count in Florida in 2000. Didn't the court say something at the time about not wanting to upset the American people? Hmmm.....
Obama will pardon all of them.
Sorry Walrus, at this site facts are required.
he'll block any kind of prosecution...and before you flip out, there's plenty of evidence that Obama is doing everything he can to sweep it all under the rug
While channel flipping during a commercial break on my news channel of choice(MSNBC) Faux Noise is crying double standard. Why release the legal memos and not the photos
the US will still need to manufacture engines and chassis for military vehicles. Or do we intend to send out to Mitsubishi for those things in the years ahead?
yes
unless they're Steyrs...or god forbid, Scania's
Likely they'd be John Deere, Cummins, or Cat's...parts are easily available worldwide for most of the American made engines, especially the Cats...the Austrian engines while, superior in some aspects, they're just not easy to work on, and the American engines MUCH simpler to maintain in the field.
Seriously.
Yanmars are the only marine/industrial engines out of Japan that are any good, and they're outstanding engines actually, but don't have the torque curve that the military would require.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but American Industrial/Marine engines pretty much kick ass. And the military won't walk away from that unless absolutely necessary.
Ah, but what's to stop a non-American corporation from buying any or all of the companies you name?
There's no guarantee that John Deere, CAT or Cummins will always be owned by a majority of American investors/shareholders, or that their factories will always be in America and employ Americans. After all, look what happened to the most iconic American military vehicle of all time:
"American Motors set up the first automobile-manufacturing joint venture in the People's Republic of China on January 15, 1984 [6]. The result was Beijing Jeep Corporation, Ltd., in partnership with Beijing Automobile Industry Corporation, to produce the Jeep Cherokee (XJ) in Beijing. Manufacture continued after Chrysler's buyout of AMC. This joint venture is now part of DaimlerChrysler and DaimlerChrysler China Invest Corporation."
Who owns Chrysler, again?
NO guarantees for anything, ever.
I can't remember the name of the investment firm that owns Chrysler...
I was being a bit of a sarcastic prat with that last question. :)
Fiat was considering the purchase of Chrysler, but it seems we didn't offer them enough tax breaks & taxpayer $$$ to close the deal. Last I read, Chrysler is being forced into bankruptcy & they're about to liquidate assets, starting with the company-owned dealerships.
Anyway, I think we're probably agreed on the overall point - corporate/political greed & cronyism is making good things worse or destroying them outright.
Why would listening to the person that is going to be charged with war crimes, Odierno, when it comes to defending torture, or prosecuting it?
He has a reason for evidence of his crimes not to be seen. But as president, you have an obligation to the law that supercedes someone that has already committed a war crime, or treason. There is clearly a reason that this person would not want you to show his handiwork. But it makes you complicit.
The choice is obvious, Mr. President.
as i said just as nixon tried to get by with it! ITS OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE!
..that appointed W dictator?
"At this point, it looks like Obama plans to appeal the case to the Supreme Court, and if they lose there (as they have at all previous levels), they won't have any choice about releasing them."
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
I'm not sure he's to big on the idea of having an all out War-Jihad declared on the U.S. during his tenure at this point the pics could no doubt trigger more problems then he could handle.
We lost it when PNAC took over in 2001.
by ending the wars and releasing the photos.
NOBODY 2012
...and jailing everyone in both Houses of Congress, but...
(it was a nice daydream)
far left loon >.<
In the meantime, they'll now be using up their political capital to defend Dick Cheney and his merry band of torturers. Now, that's a lovely prospect, isn't it? I'm sure Cheney will repay him generously for the effort.
Yep. Now President Obama just needs to decide where in his back he'd like Shooter to bury the knife.
More relevant to the topic:
I have mixed feelings about this. I can see the reasoning, not necessarily the wisdom, for both releasing the pics and not releasing them. I will now go upthread and see what you all have to say.
I'm just superstitious enough to hedge my bets.
Obama is being briefed on appropriate responses nothing is off the table of course with a U.S. Military Response.
This century is going to be the War Mongers Utopia apparently.
...that this is bigger than Bush, Cheney, or even Obama? I'm not talking Illuminati or anything like that (though nothing is off the table. Haha), but that the fix is already in and Obama is just the new captain? Sad, sad, sad...
I'm just superstitious enough to hedge my bets.
the profound notion that america committed something totally shameful - and we can't accept that.
We got into the shithole with the people who attacked us. The only way out is to prosecute those who authorized and carried out torture.
Can't believe that's some of the sentiment here.
Not release the photos?
That would be equivalent to not showing photos of Aushwitz, My Lai, Birmingham, Alabama circa 1963.
Wow. Not sure at all I'm in the right country.
It's not the one I wanted to believe in as a kid.
..be part of as an adult.
I remember how people didn't think the Afghanistan or the Iraq Wars were going to be W's Viet Nam. Phht, yeah right!
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
It never has been. Warning, danger, warning, your propaganda is wearing off. Time for a refill.
far left loon >.<
If the new photos are less horrific that what we've already seen, we don't need to see them. We have the originals and the memos. That's all we need. Great strategy by Obama/Holder. By the time they get around to releasing the new photos, the investigations will be finished and the Bush criminals will be indicted.
I got the distinct impression that the questions begging Gibbs for answers as to why the photos won't be released were beings asked by wing nut journalists.
I've read that these pictures show much more horrific acts, and that's why they weren't released with the first batch, some of which of course were released by those who took them. These are the ones that have been hidden in the dark fastness of the CIA's dungeons.
that were destroyed by the CIA, despite orders not to do so. Frankly, I'm surprised these photos still exist.
The release of the pictures would signal to the world that such abuse is no longer tolerated, and that the people who ordered and committed such atrocities will be punished.
Obama's sudden flip-flop on this critical issue is very disappointing. I feel betrayed.
I have little to no understanding of Middle Eastern cultures. However, some of us in our culture possess no qualms about posing semi- to totally nude in front of camera. Thus, our tolerance level of what is acceptable may seem rather high.
Other cultures that have long standing traditions about what can be seen, by whom and when seems to be an extreme opposite of our own.
Sure, we can say: "Show us the pictures." But for some of the families of the men that might be depicted, this could cause additional shame. Shame that some of us have no clue what that could be about.
I think it's also culturally sensative to perhaps either delay or release these photos in private.
"When are we going to stop trying to tell elected officials what to do. Our job is to spend the taxpayers' money the best way we can." -- Tommy Watkins, Justice of the Peace, Crawford County, Arkansas
Huh! Interesting aspect. But then we'd have to accept that Obama might actually be a relatively good, thoughtful, well-meaning individual and frankly, a lot people are too cynical to make that leap of faith. WHo can blame them, given the nature of politics and the scars we all bear from the last 8 years. I struggle, too. Hell, I look bipolar on this thread alone!
I'm just superstitious enough to hedge my bets.
On the upside, this "controversy" can put the torture issue back on the table after getting blown off the media radar by that horrible swine flu that's going to kill us all.
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