Oath Keepers: Potentially the most lethal and dangerous of all the new 'Patriot' groups
One of the things that happens major political parties and major media figures indulge in naked fearmongering is that -- surprise! -- a lot of people get fearful. Really fearful. Some of them become downright paranoid, and start believing in all kinds of looming conspiracies against them.
Which means you wind up with outfits like the Oath Keepers, who clearly are one of the major "Patriot" groups leading the recent surge in Patriot movement activity.
You can watch Stewart Rhodes, the Oath Keepers' leader, at the recent CPAC conference being interviewed by the ever-friendly Bill Whittle and come away with the impression that, gosh, these are just folks who want to uphold the Constitution and apple pie. Paranoid, us?
As with all Patriot groups and their leaders, that's the schtick when the cameras are on. When the mask comes off, it becomes quite a different picture.
That's clear from reading Justine Sharrock's in-depth piece on the Oath Keepers for Mother Jones, a must-read. [Full disclosure: I am quoted in several places in this article.] As Sharrock makes clear, one of the more disturbing aspects of this group is that it has the effect of radicalizing the very people who are supposed to be upholding the law and protecting us from violent extremists:
There are scores of patriot groups, but what makes Oath Keepers unique is that its core membership consists of men and women in uniform, including soldiers, police, and veterans. At regular ceremonies in every state, members reaffirm their official oaths of service, pledging to protect the Constitution—but then they go a step further, vowing to disobey "unconstitutional" orders from what they view as an increasingly tyrannical government.
Moreover, recruiting from military and police veterans increases exponentially the lethal competence of these extremists. As we observed back in our first post on the Oath Keepers:
This is an example of why I've called the Iraq War "the Timothy McVeigh Finishing School": Inevitably, there are going to be competent killers either joining the far right from our military ranks -- especially if they've been recruited into those beliefs either before or during their service -- or enacting far-right "lone wolf scenarios," and they are going to have the ability to wreak a great deal of havoc.
... Remember, too, that there have already been concerns raised about concerns raised then by the FBI hold true in this situation as well:
Military experience—ranging from failure at basic training to success in special operations forces—is found throughout the white supremacist extremist movement. FBI reporting indicates extremist leaders have historically favored recruiting active and former military personnel for their knowledge of firearms, explosives, and tactical skills and their access to weapons and intelligence in preparation for an anticipated war against the federal government, Jews, and people of color.
... The prestige which the extremist movement bestows upon members with military experience grants them the potential for influence beyond their numbers. Most extremist groups have some members with military experience, and those with military experience often hold positions of authority within the groups to which they belong.
... Military experience—often regardless of its length or type—distinguishes one within the extremist movement. While those with military backgrounds constitute a small percentage of white supremacist extremists, FBI investigations indicate they frequently have higher profiles within the movement, including recruitment and leadership roles.
Rhodes and Whittle are eager to portray the core of the Oath Keepers' creeds -- the "ten orders" they "will not obey" -- as involving merely ordinary rights that everyone naturally would stand up for, and in a way, that's true. But only deeply paranoid people would believe there is any reason to be concerned that these rights violations might be looming.
Here they are:
- 1. We will NOT obey any order to disarm the American people.
- 2. We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people.
- 3. We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to military tribunal.
- 4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state.
- 5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.
- 6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.
- 7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.
- 8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control."
- 9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.
- 10. We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.
It seems not to occur to Whittle to ask how many people believe the government is about to cordon off our cities and turn them into concentration camps. Evidently, because he too shares that fear.
It's widespread among the Oath Keepers, as Sharrock makes clear -- and highly selective. That is, it's relegated largely to liberal Democratic presidents, because Republicans are people they can trust:
Pray (who asked me to use his middle name rather than his first) and five fellow soldiers based at Fort Drum take this directive very seriously. In the belief that the government is already turning on its citizens, they are recruiting military buddies, stashing weapons, running drills, and outlining a plan of action. For years, they say, police and military have trained side by side in local anti-terrorism exercises around the nation. In September 2008, the Army began training the 3rd Infantry's 1st Brigade Combat Team to provide humanitarian aid following a domestic disaster or terror attack—and to help with crowd control and civil unrest if need be. (The ACLU has expressed concern about this deployment.) And some of Pray's comrades were guinea pigs for military-grade sonic weapons, only to see them used by Pittsburgh police against protesters last fall.
Most of the men's gripes revolve around policies that began under President Bush but didn't scare them so much at the time. "Too many conservatives relied on Bush's character and didn't pay attention," founder Rhodes told me. "Only now, with Obama, do they worry and see what has been done. I trusted Bush to only go after the terrorists. But what do you think can happen down the road when they say, 'I think you are a threat to the nation?'"
In Pray's estimate, it might not be long (months, perhaps a year) before President Obama finds some pretext—a pandemic, a natural disaster, a terror attack—to impose martial law, ban interstate travel, and begin detaining citizens en masse. One of his fellow Oath Keepers, a former infantryman, advised me to prepare a "bug out" bag with 39 items including gas masks, ammo, and water purification tablets, so that I'd be ready to go "when the shit hits the fan."
And yes, they're closely enmeshed with the Tea Party movement now:
Oath Keepers collaborates regularly with like-minded citizens groups; last Fourth of July, Rhodes dispatched speakers to administer the oath at more than 30 Tea Party rallies across America. At last fall's 9/12 march on Washington, he led a contingent of Oath Keepers from the Capitol steps down to the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. Afterward, Oath Keepers cohosted a banquet with the hawkish Gathering of Eagles. This February, a member of the group organized a Florida Freedom Rally featuring Joe the Plumber and conservative singer Lloyd Marcus. (Sample lyrics: Mr. President! Your stimulus is sure to bust / it's just a socialistic scheme / The only thing it will do / is kill the American Dream.)
And the paranoia knows few limits, as all kinds of conspiracy theories are encouraged:
Oath Keepers is officially nonpartisan, in part to make it easier for active-duty soldiers to participate, but its rightward bent is undeniable, and liberals are viewed with suspicion. At lunch, when I questioned my tablemates about the Obama-Hitler comparisons I'd heard at the conference, I got a step-by-step tutorial on how the president's socialized medicine agenda would beget a Nazi-style regime.
I learned that bringing guns to Tea Party protests was a reminder of our constitutional rights, was introduced to the notion that the founding fathers modeled their governing documents on the Bible, and debated whether being Muslim meant an inability to believe in and abide by—and thus be protected by—the Constitution. I was schooled on the treachery of the Federal Reserve and why America needs a gold standard, and at dinner one night, Nighta Davis, national organizer for the National 912 Project, explained how abortion-rights advocates are part of a eugenics program targeting Christians.
It's a long piece, but essential reading.




The fifth link (the long one) isn't working for me.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
nationalize GM, they lent them money so they could avoid bankruptcy.
To these bigots, all bets were off when that uppity n****r became President.
when W was raping the Constitution (that "piece of paper") and then using it as toiler paper?
Yea, they explained the conservative mind quite well. Of course Bush did exactly what they're afraid of but they trusted him because he was Republican. They know what he was doing they just didn't care.
It has nothing to do with the sanctity of the Constitution. It's all about paranoid fantasies about LIberals.
One thing I absolutely love is how the panty-wetting terror of LIberals exists in parallel with their belief that Liberals are weak and spineless. They can't defend America from threats abroad but they are monstrous supermen who are ready to subjugate the American People at the drop of a dime.
I've never seen a contradiction that a conservative couldn't embrace.
this is the most revealing statement he makes in the entire interview. They damn well knew what was happening to posse comitatus, Bill of rights, etc.
They didn't care because their guy was in the white house. Now we have a guy who doesn't look like them, or anyone they know, and is a member of the other pseudo-tribe...uh team...uh....political party, yeah that's the one.
Rightists don't care about authoritarianism, they're pissed off that they lost to a black guy, to liberals, and that they fucked everything up so completely, but can't complain about that specifically since they are complicit in causing it to come about.This is at least part of the reason they refuse to specify specifics when asked what Obama has actually DONE, to piss them off so much.
The Oath Keepers are keeping it safe out on the street,
Living in Mom's basement watching Fox and beating their meat.
Wake up America here come the Schvuggies. Yeeaahhhhh where's my bug out bag.
I ordered as take-out. Not to mention the Chow Har Kew.
Chow Har Kew? Fine, until I read this. This post was House No FUN!
This country is headed for disaster. Soon!
My opinion now is, if states want to secede from the Union, go ahead! Please, GTF out of here. I'm tired of supporting your stupid, ignorant, religious asses.
Of course, I now live back in NY State. So, it's easy for me to say.
We'll have the northeast, and west coasts, and many of the states bordering Canada (PLEASE TAKE ME!!!!!!! Sweet Jesus, Canada, please take me!).
I think when the poo-poo hits the ventilator, we can do an exchange with the seceded states. We'll take the people who want to come live in a normal state and country, and they can have the ignorant, racist, religious bastards we have in our states.
You know they'll want to move to Texasistan. So they can carry guns, and rape and pillage at will, and go to church on Sunday, like good Christians.
Ah, Civil War Redux... And the South will lose again. But this time, we'll just leave them the Hell alone, so they can "Reconstruct" their own house, you know, the one they divided from normalcy and ration.
Bye!
Operation Exodus (8:36)
Study the symptoms not the virus...
frank schaefer makes some good points, always makes a lot of sense.
have never been in a fight in their life.
... Know? No Vets, Policemen or Firefighters?
Study the symptoms not the virus...
never get a chance to use their imaginary police powers. Sadly, if nothing comes up they just might make their own opportunity.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
who say that they will follow their oath to defend the constitution are a real bunch of clowns.
of whatever their service who take their oaths seriously. It's scoundrels who wrap themselves in flags and hide behind a false patriotism I dislike.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
and problems with oath keepers.
twelve?
Hasa Diga Eebowai
And it's easy to tell what he's been consuming.Proably force fed when he was young,poor thing. Didn't have a chance.You know,like a right-wing veal.
....the fools do not realize,a population that can ,..... not paticipate .............in the 'economy'...,can not keep it viable!..........."we are listening,.......and we're not blind.,......this is your life....this is your time."
I don't understand how an anti-government group can be affiliated with a political party. It's an oxymoron.
They're for a limited government made up of like-minded people. It's the exact same thing as the relationship between the GOP and Grover "I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub." Norquist.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
yet, the bulleted (no pun intended) list sounds pretty spot-on to me. i know the devil is in the details, but i support many, if not all, of their goals. but, again, the devil is in the details. i imagine that the racist, jingoist, trigger-happy oath keepers has its own secret list that is not as benign.
and, neiwert, you must be kidding that "only deeply paranoid people would believe there is any reason to be concerned that these rights violations might be looming." shockingly shortsighted for someone as smart and well-read as you.
consider what the political estab has agreed to already:
-the loss of habeas corpus
-warrantless domestic spying
-indefinite detention of american citzens
-and the murder of american citizens without trial
the goverment loves everyone, never lies, never commits crimes, and wealthy and powerful people never conspire together to do things that will increase their wealth and power.
you must be new 'round these parts
:)
fat old white guys with guns?
Hasa Diga Eebowai
it is active duty police and military who say they will uphold their oath to defend the constitution. What is wrong with that?
With no basis in fact.
Hard to trust those with such a flimsy grasp of reality.
then you and all the other fraidy cats will have nothing to worry about. I wonder if the people of Pittsburgh had a flimsy grasp of reality as they were getting beat down by thugs at the G20 last year?
I'm not afraid of the scary black president who might be a Marxist, socialist, communist, Kenyan, fascist, Muslim (any smears I'm forgetting?.
Stop watching Glenn Beck. There are no concentration camps being opened. No one will round you up. There are no plans for martial law. There are no plans to turn this country into a communist or socialist one. Your right to speak is not being infringed upon, your right to peacefully assemble are not being taken away (I bet you enjoyed the hell out of those tea parties, didn't you?). None of those things that the Oath Keepers are so scared of (those frightened little bunnies) is about to happen.
So take a deep breath, find your lovey (is it a teddy bear or do you prefer something more butch?) and try to calm down.
The fact that you're SO INSISTENT that this is nothing to be concerned about makes me think your grasp on reality isn't all that strong either.
How much more violence by right wingers fearful of the Other does this country need to endure? Shall we shoot up more Unitarian Churches? Womens' Health Doctors? Holocaust Museum guards? Federal employees?
Stop feeding into the fear.
Being an administrator of this site, I have access to more information than the regular commenters.
Your IP address is of interest to me. Do you know, almost 100% of the spammers on this site come from the same block of IP addresses as you do? And then there is the professional trolls meant to derail conversations. Curiously, they seem to all come from the same part of the world as your IP address.
Don't you find that interesting?
I do find it interesting that you will never comment on the points I make, you just insult me.
is from the same part of the world where we get almost all of our spammers and professional trolls is an insult to you?
I'm not sure how that is, unless of course, you don't like reality pointed out to you.
irrelevant. I probably have the same hair color as a lot of murderers too.
"A" point repeated and repeated endlessly. If you think there is nothing wrong with a bunch of frightened guys with guns that is certainly your right but you have no point that would convince anyone.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
been to a tea party, didnt say there were plans for martial law, dont think you're a right winger, didn't say there were concentration camps being opened. I did say that 'camps' have been built, as per H.R. 645. And I did say I bet the students at the university of Pittsburgh who tried to assemble on the quad during the G20 thought their rights were being taken away. Why is it that all you can do is insult me, and never discuss the facts that I have presented to you?
And there's no point in discussing facts with the intellectually dishonest.
You think this is all about the G20 protest? I call bullshit.
You think this is nothing more than honorable officers declaring that they will uphold the Constitution, I call double bullshit.
You say that this has nothing to do with racism and then parrot birther brainlessness? I call triple bullshit.
You're a troll. You don't want to discuss the issues. You want to derail discussion.
insult me and never discuss the facts. Thanks.
intellectual dishonesty. Cherry picking. Excellent work, sched. Very consistent.
me-oww!
Tell me, what facts have you offered?
Obama's long form birth certificate? Far from a factual meme.
That the Oath Keepers are nothing but loyal to the Constitution and not worth questioning? Sorry, not seeing any facts there either.
That the G20 protest is evidence of some grand Obama conspiracy that deserves sedition by law enforcement officers? Again, a little light on the facts.
When you want to discuss fact, troll, feel free. Until them, I calls 'em as I sees 'em.
put words in my mouth. Has Obama produced his long form birth certificate? You wont say. I did not say the G20 beat downs (there was no protests, just beat downs) were evidence of anything except violated rights. The whole point of the oath keeper is to say that they are loyal to the constitution. So you're saying they arent'? Where is your evidence?
I've accurately portrayed you.
I've responded to your World Nut Daily long form birth certificate bullshit, troll.
The whole point of the Oath Keeper is NOT loyalty to the Constitution. You keep repeating that, but unlike on Fox News (which they get in your country, don't they?), repeating something over and over doesn't make it so.
Try reading the article.
whether he released a long form birth certificate? And why do you have such a problem with me not being inside the US? You're not xenophobic are you?
And no, I am not xenophobic. I love all different cultures and countries. I'm married to a naturalized citizen.
But your interest and spirited defense of American fringe groups seems odd to me.
what has Obama's birth certificate got to do with this thread and the 'Oath Keepers?' Is your argument for these men with small dicks so weak you need to bring in a long discredited fable to distract from the real issue here?
You aren't very good at this 'debate' thing, are you.
me-oww!
that they will uphold the constitution, then what is it?
Are you that dense?
Read the article. These are people who think their rights are IMMINENTLY in danger and are threatening to act.
threatening to not act, as in not obeying any unconstituitional orders. Again thanks for the insult.
And yes, I've called you a name.
Act as a troll, get called a troll. Don't like it? Don't act like one.
I'm sure Nicole means "You're welcome!"
me-oww!
what they think is imminently in danger? What is they were Oath keepers who thought they sky was going to turn green? They uphold their oath, and dont follow any unconstitutional orders. Period. Anything else is irrelevant.
Then maybe it will penetrate through your talking points.
But I kinda doubt it.
for more on this see the documentary
"The Miami Model"
can probably get it online for free.
...on the other side of the globe, are there?
Do you know what they are? Do you know the fallacy the teabaggers use when they compare themselves to the American revolutionaries of the 1770's? I'll bet you don't- because they probably didn't teach American History in your schools.
Take your time in formulating your dodge. I need to pick up some groceries.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
are a bunch of active duty police and military who affirm their oath to defend the constituition. That sounds really extremist, racist, dangerous, lethal, scary, and crazy to me.
i.e. No longer sworn officers involved in the teeny peeny big boys army. watch the vid. from 0-16 seconds.
"Current [inaudible] military, police, firefighters or veterans of those services" I guess those tiny details are not needed in orchard work.
And yes it is. it's MORE POLICE. Nice of you to sit across the ocean and pontificate on the greatness of more cops in the US.
me-oww!
check it out and see how seriously the founders took that whole civil liberties spiel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeWwcTKO64g
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
points 1, 2 and 3 were going on in recent years or are still going on.
that's 3 out of 10. paranoia?
wonder what would have happened if democrats formed an organization of police offers that don't conduct warrantless searches under the patriot act?
C&L would have supported it.
are being trained to violate your constitutional rights.
things like harassing people for photographing public property from public property. Where were these so-called defenders of the constitution when grandmas and babies were being patted down at the gate under Bush? I guess it's different to them when the president is a Negro. If a white fossil was president, would they care?
to get their group formed? Why does that make them bad? Better late than never.
it seems, these oaf keepers. The constitutional issues go back to 2001 and they're just getting around to it now? It wouldn't have anything to do with Obama, now would it?
It's because Obama is black. These militia folks are just the KKK and Nazis, wearing a new mask.
when Bush thugs were putting protesters in "free speech" zones and people arrested for wearing the wrong t-shirts to Bush "public" appearances? Out getting fitted with white hoods?
If they really cared about the constitution, they could have joined the ACLU. But that would have meant protecting civil liberties for all Americans, not just those they like.
I don't think paranoia is the list per se, the paranoia exists when all of a sudden these people decide it's "necessary" to up the ante and the recruitment.
This is the paranoia of the right-wing that "socialism" is right around the corner. In spite of the fact that there isn't one credible example of it in anything that Obama or the Dems have advocated or done. Nada. Zilch.
That's your paranoia (mixed in with a couple more psychotic dispositions that I won't go into).
not all of a sudden.
stewart rhodes worked for ron paul, a critic of the patriot act among other things since its inception.
the question to ask is not why republicans now join this group because of obama, but why democrats don't, even though he continues those unconstitutional policies.
is that the Patriot Act is only one facet of Paul's platform. He is also an evolution-denier who opposes stem cell research and wants to slash public school funding, among many other backwards-assed "ideas."
Another reason is that there are good guys among the Democrats -- Kucinich, Weiner, Grayson, Dean -- and many lefties think that by getting behind those guys, we can overcome the corporatist elements among the Dems.
that paul denies evolution is a lie.
that you don't agree with a few of paul's other policies is besides the point - which was that it is not "all of a sudden" (with the subtext "because we have a black president")
does not accept the theory of evolution.
settles that BDM. LOL
Hasa Diga Eebowai
he says evolution is a theory (which is correct) and that he doesn't really care because it has no place in politics.
what's your point again?
i think he said that it is a theory (which it is) and that he doesn't believe in it...
his words were "I don't accept it". yeah, I don't know what that means and I would have said it differently.
but as long as he keeps it out of politics, I don't care.
by that standard you couldn't elect anybody who believes in religious bullshit.
back to topic?
is equally a theory. Would you want a president or any other political leader who is fundamentally ignorant?
Hasa Diga Eebowai
would you elect anybody who (claims to) believe in a talking snake?
you just did.
as long as it doesn't influence his policies I don't care.
that he "denies" evolution is still wrong.
I'm not a US citizen. That would be interesting though. Care to provide a link.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
""Let's make clear what the facts are: I am a Christian. I have been sworn in with a Bible."
Barack Obama
He's a muslim.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
that he is a fundamentalist Christian who believes that nonsense?
Hasa Diga Eebowai
he took an oath to this nonsense.
yes, he probably doesn't believe it.
but claiming to a republican base that you don't accept evolution to get elected, and claiming to believe christian bullshit to get elected...not much difference, eh?
Which makes Ron Paul no different from any other triangulating politician. Nothing special there.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
"You know, my faith is one that admits some doubt."
Study the symptoms not the virus...
now you're being intellectually dishonest, which means I'm through dealing with you. Bye.
1.) In response to your assertion, "that paul denies evolution is a lie," the clip I linked to makes clear that he does not accept the theory of evolution. His direct quote is: "I think evolution is a theory, and I don't accept it as a theory." Moreover, if he cannot see the importance of the underlying basis for the vast majority of scientific work on this planet, then he has no business being president.
2.) Your initial comment asks why don't Democrats join "this group." And, as I thought I made clear in my reply, opposition to the USA Patriot Act and related constitutional concerns is the only common ground most Democrats can find with any of these "patriot" organizations, and these concerns are already being addressed by Kucinich and the others I mentioned within the Democratic Party. Plus, as I alluded to above, Ron Paul is a scary motherfucker with white supremecist friends, and a desire to slash education funding, and a frightening attitude towards science.
many of his base do believe creationism not only has a place in politics but actually in biology classes. Let's face it, the fundies are determined to make their religion the official one any way they can. I'm quite certain Paul knows that evolution is a theory for which no counter example has ever been found. He can't say that,of course, because it would cost him votes. I believe they call that moral cowardice.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
I suspect you're right with respect to his real beliefs and what he can say to a republican base.
but again, paul is against a federal department of education. so you can battle creationists and other idiots in the local school boards.
I'm fine with that.
Ron Paul on Evolution full recording;)
Study the symptoms not the virus...
They're right-wing concern trolls who only drag this shit out into the public when there are liberals/progressives in power.
These are guys who right up ten talking points in a way that makes them seem altruistic, but who are more than happy to join the military and live off a government paycheck and follow orders as long as a Bush or Reagan are giving the orders. There's a word for this: Hypocrisy.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
so. form your own opposition to obama's support for the patriot act.
I'm not seeing any.
He can't veto it at this point. It's a legislative issue.
This conversation leads me to believe that you might need to join a group that teaches remedial civics.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
...or in nitpicking.
then go oppose democrats in congress and protest obama's vote for it when he was in congress.
...though I'm pretty sure I've linked it before, is Ron Paul's good old HR 300, which aimed to bypass the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. I think that St. Paul of Surfside needs to join you in that civics class: Constitutional amendments legally change the Constitution. Bills like his attempt to illegally trample our constitutionally guaranteed rights.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
That's the irony of these paranoid groups: their conspiratorial mindset leads them to form CONSPIRACIES in response to their delusions.
Our government is indeed broken--corrupt, useless, doomed. But that just means they won't be able to even answer their phones.
Hal Turner was paid by the FBI to spew hate talk.
Hannity's buddy.
the FBI was paying a talk radio host to spew hate in order to make a segment of the population look bad, and your response is "Hannity's buddy"? AREN'T YOU CONCERNED ABOUT THE DEEPER PICTURE???
Looks like they were calling him up and making themselves look bad enough on air, but it was the stuff that they communicated to him off the air is what Turner sold to the Feds.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Stop looking at things through the left-right prism and you'll understand.
They don't just pay someone to incite violence. Think about the extreme criminality of doing that. It's not about ferreting radicals - that's the cover.
...creating hate groups?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
It's about perception and manipulation. Basically they don't want people talking to each other, so they reinforce certain stereotypes and caricatures. The media does it all the time too. Serious discussion of problems is actively discouraged in today's America. You are only debating if its via a left/right wing meme.
who belong to one of the numerous right-wing groups (from tea party to 9/12 to whatever), one of the first questions I ask them is what their stance is on sweeping and significant reform of campaign finance laws. In other words, public financing of all national elections.
Since that's the only way that we'll go systemic corruption out of the system.
Most of the time they either haven't thought much about it or they think it's...yes, a socialist plot.
Try it on your "tea party" acquaintances and see what happens...a good litmus test (there are others, of course).
why the left is so supportive of gun control, seems to me the left should be the people most in support of people being armed.
i agree with some of samsons points above, we have seen civil rights violated under repubs and dems.
all gun control laws. I own guns. I'm not against semi automatic weapons but don't support automatic weapons. When you say the left, you are painting with a very wide brush.
but then when talking about this stuff a lot of people generalize.
don't own guns myself, but i would be more concerned about restrictions on magazine size than other things.
now i am not saying people should be able to own tanks, there should be some limits, we don't want the roaring twenties all over again.
there is some truth to the statement that when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.
don't support gun control for the simple reason that criminals don't obey gun laws anyway, and law-abiding gun owners represent a very small percentage of gun-related crimes.
But also irresponsible gun owners that shoot at anything, or lay the guns around the house like they're toys.
Education or a limited control may be okay, but not outright banning, as it's far too late for that, and they tend not to work in retrospect (see: Prohibition).
of Police and Military affirming their oath to the constitution? Why are they extremists for saying that they are going to follow their oath and will not follow unconstitutional orders? If no unconstitutional orders come along, then they wont do anything, so there is nothing to worry about.
Their training allows them to violate your rights.
I assume you are talking about politicians?
what is constitutional or not, and their interpretation gets pretty weird sometimes.
but what the hell, bush didn't have to follow it, looks like obama thinks he doesn't have to either.
They said that back in Germany back in the 30s, I believe.
Pointing out at the risk of deletion...member less than 10 mins.
when one of the more unhinged becomes completely unhinged and feels that he/she must take it upon themselves to right the wrong--that is scary.
to do with the oath keepers? Personally, I want all police and military to follow their oath to uphold the constitution.
"I wouldn't classify Oath Keepers as no threat at all, but I wouldn't classify them as a threat either," McMahill said. "There's always a chance an individual can step outside the boundaries of what an organization stands for and do something wrong."
http://www.lvrj.com/news/oath-keepers-pledges...
kind of spoke for you
:)
i think this is what samson is worried about
"The whole point of Oath Keepers is to stop a dictatorship from ever happening here," Rhodes, a former Army paratrooper and Yale-trained lawyer, said in an interview with the Review-Journal. "My focus is on the guys with the guns, because they can't do it without them.
"We say if the American people decide it's time for a revolution, we'll fight with you."
from samsons link
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/area_man...
Hasa Diga Eebowai
THis Linky No Worky. That's clear from reading , a must-read. [Full disclosure: I am quote...and protecting us from violent extremists:
Can't read the must read article. Please fix. I'd like to take a look.
[I'm not saying that it won't be fixed, but I don't think you should hold your breath, Peter G. David departed today on a ten-day trip to the Orient.
If you can let us know what it is that you believe requires a fix,We'll see what we can do. Thanks, Site Monitor][I figured it out, Peter G. It's now a matter of finding the source. Site Monitor]
Hasa Diga Eebowai
The long link doesn't seem to function. I hope David enjoys his trip.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
It's to a Mother Jones article by Sharrock.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/03/oath-...
kindly.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
:)
would be a lot less scary to David Neiwert. If all police and military vowed to not follow their oath to uphold the constitution, and vowed that they would blindly follow any order from a superior, regardless of its constitutionality. That would be a lot less scary.
Empirically, the oath to defend the Constitution is not troubling.
Where the problem lies is in the assumption that those freedoms are being threatened NOW. Not during the Bush terms, when those freedoms were being trampled on left and right. But now, with Barack Obama in office and all those scary "isms" being thrown about--Marxism, socialism, communism, fascism--that these "Oath Keepers" see as an imminent threat to the Constitution.
David's been writing about this for years (and I agree with him) that these are the poorly reasoned justifications being used by an angry, unfocused and (yeah, I'm going there) racist mob who simply fear the Other that they perceive Obama to be.
It's intellectual dishonesty. They cherrypick points of agreement, like the Patriot Act, and portray their concerns merely as anxiety for the Constitution when they know full well that the main cause of this sudden support for the "patriot" groups is that we have a black president.
they will uphold their oath to defend the constitution are racists who dont like that we have a black president. That is ridiculous.
as one of their primary weapons.
I've always wondered what weapons they would choose to control?
Where would someone against gun control draw the line?
say they will uphold their oath to defend the constitution are angry, unfocused, and a racist mob? That is ridiculous.
It IS ridiculous that these active duty police and military think there is an imminent threat that we will round up people into concentration camps (been watching a little too much Glenn Beck, methinks).
It IS ridiculous that these active duty police and military think that there is an imminent threat that foreign troops will be brought in to subjugate our citizens.
Etc, etc.
You've hit the nail on the head. It's ridiculous. Which is what makes these Oath Keepers disingenuous and worth keeping an eye on.
Let me guess, sched, are you an Oath Keeper? Do you REALLY think that there are imminent threats to your rights?
they think might happen? They are saying they will defend the constitution, and not follow any unconstitutional orders. If they don't get any unconstititional orders, then they won't do anything but defend the constitution. They could say they will not follow any orders from green martians, so since I dont think they will get any orders from geen martians, then I dont have anything to worry about. Before the govt. could put people in camps, the camps would have to be built and exist, which they do. Check out H.R. 645, and the Civilian Inmate Labor Program. Whether the govt. will put people in the camps no one knows, but at least the oath keepers won't be doing it. Foreign troops have been brought in and trained with our military, check out NLE 09. No, I am not an oath keeper. But if I was an active duty police or military, I would keep my oath, as opposed to not keeping it. Yes, I think there are imminent threats to my rights, I bet the people of Pittsburgh do too.
These people are claiming the right to decide what is and is not constitutional. Given the paranoia evident in their dogma, birther and truther nonsense I would have to question whether or not any of them belong in any sort of service.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
warning: i am about to make an assumption based on my gut
i would be willing to bet that those "officers" that used excessive force on the G20 protesters in pittsburgh are the oathkeeper-type. coming from the far right, the oathkeepers would most likely have no problem denying civil rights to lefties, enviros, and anti-globalization types
a single one of those officers was an oath keeper, because they weren't keeping their oath. That kind of behavior by police is exactly what oath keepers was established to try to prevent.
if that was a gathering of rightwingers (see, teaparty, birchers, etc.) then i would agree. but, since that was not the case i don't agree, and i take your bet. i think the oathkeepers would love to bash some lefties for pure enjoyment,
*virtual shake*
that's the most ironic aspect of this discussion, and of the teabag/birther/"patriot" movement. The segment of the population most likely to have their constitutional rights violated -- and it happens all the time -- is the environmental/anti-war/anti-globalism activists. You never see the cops break up the teabag demonstrations, but every anti-war protest I've ever attended ended with club-wielding cops advancing on the crowd unprovoked.
that David linked. If, as appears to be the case, many of these oath keepers are birthers, then they don't believe Obama is the president and therefore not the commander-in-chief. Hence all orders are illegal. In other words they reserve the right to mutiny whenever they feel like it.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
If he read the article instead of asking 50,000 times what's wrong with police and active duty military swearing to uphold the Constitution.
uphold their oath and defend the constitution, and refuse unconstitutional orders, or they dont keep their oath to defend the constitution, and they follow unconstitutional orders. Peronally, I prefer the former. I guess Nicole and David and others would prefer police and military to be Oath Non-Keepers.
Like your grasp of higher cognitive powers, especially in the form of repeating the same information over and over without any acknowledgment of information being offered to you.
How about offering me, would you rather police and military uphold their oath and defend the constitution, or not?
You haven't offered anything more than "What's wrong with active duty police and military defend the Constitution."
Nice try, though. Reading comprehension can be a bitch when you're not from the US, can't it?
with nothing but attacks and insults. I guess you have nothing to back up what you are saying or disprove what I am saying.
and see I am not in the US ? Wow, that really makes you something special.
I know where you're posting from.
And as I said, I know exactly the kind of posters that come from that IP block.
have the same hair color as me and maybe like some of the same kinds of food too.
Everyone on this site knows that insinuating racism on me won't fly. I'm not racist (in fact, you don't know what race I am at all, do you?), I'm calling out you for being intellectually dishonest, not the color of your hair or anything else about you.
Like I said, we used to get a lot of professional trolls from your IP block. All of them clung to their talking points too.
Are you using a proxy because you've been banned and can't get back on here or something? Or are you really in another country, gettin' it on for the oath keepers over there?
me-oww!
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