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[H/t Heather]

In his defense of Rand Paul yesterday, the normally admirable Dave Weigel offered the following quote, by way of suggesting the unfortunate fate that had befallen Paul in his devastating entanglement with Rachel Maddow:

"As a result of National Review’s above-the-fray philosophizing," wrote Edwards, "and Barry Goldwater’s vote, on constitutional grounds, against the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the albatross of racism was hung around the neck of American conservatism and remained there for decades and even to the present."

This, like so much conservative and libertarian mythologizing, is a large load of bunk.

Conservatives have been associated with racism and white supremacy since at least the days of Dred Scot and John J. Calhoun. It was Southern conservatives who defended slavery, who led the South into secession and civil war and ruin, and who led the resistance to Reconstruction that overturned the verdict of the war and produced a century of Jim Crow and segregation that followed. It was conservatives who authored Plessy v. Ferguson, and it was conservatives who successfully led the fight to prevent Congress from ever passing an anti-lynching law. It was racist Southern conservatives who opposed the civil-rights movement at every turn -- well before Barry Goldwater ever tipped his vote in 1964.

But this kind of mythologizing serves a useful function: By idealizing the actual role of right-wing ideologies in history, it severs them from the historical realities they produced. Trotted out here, it lets us pretend that somehow the racist outcome of Rand Paul's ideology -- he at least told Rachel he wouldn't force private business to not discriminate racially -- are simply an accidental byproduct of his intellectually rigorous and consistent approach. As Blue Texan says, that's pretty pathetic.

Bruce Bartlett, a non-libertarian conservative, sagely observes:

As we know from history, the free market did not lead to a breakdown of segregation. Indeed, it got much worse, not just because it was enforced by law but because it was mandated by self-reinforcing societal pressure. Any store owner in the South who chose to serve blacks would certainly have lost far more business among whites than he gained. There is no reason to believe that this system wouldn't have perpetuated itself absent outside pressure for change.

In short, the libertarian philosophy of Rand Paul and the Supreme Court of the 1880s and 1890s gave us almost 100 years of segregation, white supremacy, lynchings, chain gangs, the KKK, and discrimination of African Americans for no other reason except their skin color. The gains made by the former slaves in the years after the Civil War were completely reversed once the Supreme Court effectively prevented the federal government from protecting them. Thus we have a perfect test of the libertarian philosophy and an indisputable conclusion: it didn't work. Freedom did not lead to a decline in racism; it only got worse.

This is a rhetorical game with very real stakes. It is a game Rand Paul knows well, and obviously plays well -- because it's a game his father, Ron Paul has mastered over his several decades in Congress: camouflaging real extremism with a pleasant facade of mellow libertarian reasonableness.

Indeed, this whole fight is over a facet of Rand Paul's ideology that is nearly identical to his father's. As Josh Marshall observes:

I fear though that that's not the whole story with Paul -- father or son. The truth is that there's a long and hard to explain history of both Pauls being associated with a lot of people who are avowed or crypto-racists. There's the well-known story of Ron Paul's early 1990s era newsletter which was rife with racist and homophobic commentary. Paul later distanced himself from the newsletter, claiming that items written under his name were penned by a ghost-writer and that he wasn't familiar with what had appeared there. And then there was the case back in December in which Rand's Senate campaign spokesman Chris Hightower had to resign because of racist posts on his Myspace page. Looked at in broad terms you've got a couple of guys who apparently aren't racist in any way but happen to stumble their way into close associations with racists with an astonishing frequency. It's almost like a painful race version of that classic Onion headline: "Why Do All These Homosexuals Keep Sucking My ----." There is of course the fact that Ron Paul became the darling of numerous skinhead and white supremacist groups -- but that's in a very different category because you're not responsible for who supports you but what you yourself support.

Recall, if you will, the contents of those Ron Paul newsletters:

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Martin Luther King Jr. earned special ire from Paul's newsletters, which attacked the civil rights leader frequently, often to justify opposition to the federal holiday named after him. ("What an infamy Ronald Reagan approved it!" one newsletter complained in 1990. "We can thank him for our annual Hate Whitey Day.") In the early 1990s, a newsletter attacked the "X-Rated Martin Luther King" as a "world-class philanderer who beat up his paramours," "seduced underage girls and boys," and "made a pass at" fellow civil rights leader Ralph Abernathy. One newsletter ridiculed black activists who wanted to rename New York City after King, suggesting that "Welfaria," "Zooville," "Rapetown," "Dirtburg," and "Lazyopolis" were better alternatives. The same year, King was described as "a comsymp, if not an actual party member, and the man who replaced the evil of forced segregation with the evil of forced integration."

While bashing King, the newsletters had kind words for the former Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, David Duke. In a passage titled "The Duke's Victory," a newsletter celebrated Duke's 44 percent showing in the 1990 Louisiana Republican Senate primary. "Duke lost the election," it said, "but he scared the blazes out of the Establishment." In 1991, a newsletter asked, "Is David Duke's new prominence, despite his losing the gubernatorial election, good for anti-big government forces?" The conclusion was that "our priority should be to take the anti-government, anti-tax, anti-crime, anti-welfare loafers, anti-race privilege, anti-foreign meddling message of Duke, and enclose it in a more consistent package of freedom." Duke is now returning the favor, telling me that, while he will not formally endorse any candidate, he has made information about Ron Paul available on his website.

The same was true of Ron Paul's record in Congress, where he has consistently tried to make it easier for racial and ethnic discrimination to occur in our society:

H.R.3863:

A bill to provide that the Internal Revenue Service may not implement certain proposed rules relating to the determination of whether private schools have discriminatory policies.

H.R.5842: A bill to make all Iranian Students in the United States ineligible for any form of federal aid.

H.R.4982: A bill to provide for civil rights in public schools.

[This was the "Public School Civil Rights Act of 1984", an anti-busing bill: "Eliminates inferior Federal court jurisdiction to issue any order requiring the assignment or transportation of students to public schools on the basis of race, color, or national origin."]

-- He would propose an amendment to the Constitution to gut the Fourteenth Amendment by denying citizenship to people born here whose parents aren't already citizens "nor persons who owe permanent allegiance to the United States". That latter part could produce some serious political discrimination, especially if radicals can have their citizenship revoked:

H.J.RES.46: Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to deny United States citizenship to individuals born in the United States to parents who are neither United States citizens nor persons who owe permanent allegiance to the United States.

I've also written at length about Ron Paul's history of far-right extremism, including his associations, both accidental and intentional, with far-right extremists:

Paul's associations with the radical right, in fact, are fully relevant, on three levels:

1) He has a fully documented history of actively seeking their support.

2) His ideological framework -- fighting "the New World Order," eliminating the Fed, the IRS, and most federal agencies, getting us out of the U.N., ending all gun controls, reinstating the gold standard -- meshes neatly with theirs.

3) The organizations with whom he's associated are not benign, nor merely even "controversial", but are truly noxious elements that no responsible politician should be seen endorsing: racists, xenophobes, conspiracists, and frauds. This isn't the Rose Garden Society we're talking about here, or even the NRA.

As I recently pointed out:

[I]if you run through the broad array of kooky theories about the federal government promoted on the far right, you can find any number of Ron Paul's positions -- particularly regarding the gold standard, the Federal Reserve, the IRS, and the United Nations -- floating about there. Notably, Paul also played a significant role in Congress' ongoing failure to confront the growing problem of conspiracy-driven tax protests by diverting the blame to the IRS itself.

But that's who Ron Paul is -- a "constitutionalist" who deals in conspiracy theories and extremist anti-government beliefs. It's who he always has been, and who he is now. It isn't just an accident that Paul very recently spoke to a group with troubling racial ties, or that he attended a Patriot Network banquet in his honor in 2004, or that he gave an interview to a conspiracist magazine the same year. Hell, he's been operating within those same circles since 1985.

Rand Paul was an adult when his dad's racist newsletters were being published; someone should ask him about them.

The problem Rand Paul is having right now is that no one asked his father these questions about civil rights when he ran for president. Because they should have.

Ron Paul and Rand Paul both like to present radical ideas in reasonable clothing. But the consequences of their ideas have outcomes that we have seen proven in our own history as toxic and destructive to our democratic ideals. Their ideas were long ago discredited, and simply fluffing them up in new language will not make their real-life consequences any less horrific.

There is, after all, a simple reason the Pauls attract racists to their campaigns: Their ideologies would make racist discrimination legal again. You can call it a matter of deep intellectual consistency if you like. I call it selling cheap rationalizations for real evil in the world.

Who cares if they themselves are racist or not? What matters is the fruit from the tree. As ye sow ...

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94 Comments

The GOP's New Dope.

No Huckleberry Honkeys! Didn't you read the sign?

How do you draw a picture of a
"rand paul" on a sign?

Company rules: No whities, no rednecks, no inbreads, no hicks, no Mcs, no Macs, no Pauls.


"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-

Just draw a stick figure inside a circle with a slash through it. He'll decide who he's against as he moves along.


Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.

Embittered Angry Anti-Republicrat Max-Hussein-1's picture
.

.

Shorter Rand Paul:

I may have crazy ideas...
... But my daddy's got LO-O-O-NG coats tails. Giddy-up!

.


Starve the WAR Beast...
... Save the World.

Rand Paul seems to be the Mad Hatter at the tea party now.

I don't care how many sheets of satin he hides behind, anybody can see what is beneath them.


Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.

Skruffy's picture

...says that Obama's coming down on the oil industry so hard (he did? really?) is tantamount to a "boot heel to the throat" of BP. I guess this Rue Rand Paul guy would reward BP, eh?

..murder and he still wouldn't have come down hard on them.


Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"

Skruffy's picture

Amen to that, Surfjac. They did murder 11 people and are poisoning the world's oceans.

vkobaya's picture

Then again rather than prosecuting, Bush would have given them Presidential Medals of Honor, so, maybe Obama is better.

. . . as "given total control of the 'clean-up' operation"?


Corruption favors the wealthy.

Skruffy's picture

...and "we'll put Coast Guardsmen on your boat to threaten the media with arrest if they shoot footage of the damage"...

Conflicts of interest appear to be the administration's formula for BP's efficiency.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

This freak is no different than his psychotic father, who Dubya helped gain prominence because he was an alternative to his reign of horror.

Even Paul Sr. had to learn the ropes on the right-wing. I remember one race he wasn't pro-homeschooling enough. That got fixed. I find it interesting that the TeaParty is claiming him now he won. Some have been - not happy - with both Pauls for a while.

I do agree with some of Ron Paul's economic stances, well with the ones where he says "there is a problem". He came to prominence being the only one on the right still acting like a fiscal conservative in public, as well as an alternative to Bush.

Don't like his solutions though. Gold standard? Ha. And I usually just wait for people to realize his social views. Sad that Rand, despite being younger, is still trapped in southern antebellum racial attitudes. That will, rightly so, keep them both out of the mainstream I hope.

I still think they are useful court jesters on specific issues.

Papa Paul does speak sense sometimes, such as his view of big banks. However, his son doesn't seem to have the same I.Q. I would have enjoyed hearing a libertarian vs. Democrat debate on economics, but I don't think Baby Paul has the gumption.

ricky's picture

That he is a bright young apple with a big pear. So what kind of tree did he fall from? Did he fall on his own, or did somebody wave so big he had to wave back with both hands?


“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder

He fell from a walnut tree. That's where he got his pear of nuts. Too bad they were rotten to the core.


Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.

Hechicera's picture

With a big pear .... LGT original artist's deviant art page.

fastfeat's picture

"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."

---Southwest Airlines

Ron Paul has mastered over his several decades in Congress: camouflaging real extremism with a pleasant facade of mellow libertarian reasonableness.

Thank you for that. It has long needed to be said.


Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.

Floridafish's picture
***

Exactly why I said yesterday, Rand Paul is no Libertarian. I know some Libertarians here that aren't that extreme. He's more ultra-conservative than any I have met. He's more like my father who held some of these veiws. Though most Libertarians do appear to be crazy as hell, the "less government" motto is the only thing they seem to have in common with Paul. Well, that, and "the crazy"

And I say again...the minute that you show any kind of deviation (read empathy toward government programs), then you're not a libertarian.

The Pauls are libertarians. They are the modern day patron saints of libertarians. To equate Rand Paul's backtracking on civil rights as somehow rendering him "not a libertarian" you are making a mistake at best and being ubsequious at worst.

His backtracking is for political expediency only. He is providing an out for libertarians and an ideology which has now been publicly exposed to disown him, and for himself to save his political career.

He may fool some, but he's not fooling me.


Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.

Floridafish's picture
***

L AND P, I'm not talking about backtracking on civi rights, Im talking about the Republican name they campaign under. I'm talking about his anti-choice stance, his bigorty, his homophobic veiws. There's so many more I won't go on. Those are not Libertarian veiws IMO. Libertarians are for staying OUT of peoples lives, and not just the government intrusion. Maybe I'm confusing his personal veiws with a party platform but I haven't seen a difference.

As far as I know Libertarians are not supposed to be to the right of the Republicans. Now I guess they are.

Ron Paul's following was so large a couple of years ago that he could have left the Republican party and started that third party we all talk about. I wouldn't have voted for him, or Rand, but I might vote for a true LIbertarian. Maybe a Liberal Libertarian LOL.

What happened to all of the Pauletts out there that I spent so much time arguing with just a few months ago? They loved them some Ron Paul and even said their dream ticket was Ron Paul/Dennis Kucinich. They got some agreement here because of the insane foreign policy and war mongering of W and some agreement on the out of control Federal Reserve but I for one almost daily was pointing out the crazy domestic and laissez-faire economic policies that they were trying to hide or just said I just didn't understand. Where are they all now???

I think they found out the name Paul didn't mean what they thought it did.


Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.

Floridafish's picture
***

That's funny since I just asked myself that question 10 min ago. They used to argue for Paul like he was the second coming, and now nothing.

I always argue with my girlfriend for a second coming.


Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.

Floridafish's picture
***

I missed this one earlier lol. Funny shit right there.

steve_watson's picture

I liked Ron Paul during the Republicans primaries in 2007 when he was the only candidate of either party speaking up forcefully against the idea of invading Iran, especially when he tangled with Guiliani during the Republican debate.

But ever since Obama's election, and ever since the Teabaggers disrupted the health care town halls in 2009, I've seen where Paul's ideology leads. I've seen the mobilization of racist hysteria against Obama.

In 2007, I was worried about Cheney, AIPAC, neoconservatism. Now I'm also worried about the Tea Parties and NeoKlanism. I still don't like the Democrats militarism or their apologists willing to use the Tea Parties as an excuse to say "vote for the Democrats or else you'll get Palin" but I no longer really believe Paul is serious about his anti-militarism.

Anti-militarism for Paul and most libertarians seems a bit like being against the death penalty is for Catholics. They're sort of against it but they won't put themselves out to oppose it. On the other hand the Catholics are deadly serious about stopping gay marriage and abortion and libertarians are deadly serious about gutting the public schools.

So you can call me a sucker. Too bad the Democrats are still the neocon light party or the issue would have never come up.

MaryK's picture

...is primarily about creating lots of charter schools, which are private business (and I've known some owners who became quite well-off), and killing teachers' unions. As a looking-for-a-job educator, I say No!


"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman

I don't believe young Rand is as smart as old Ron. Old Ron knows when to spill his beans and when to tip toe around a subject. He can be sort of tactful. Young Rand seems to think that because he is his father's son, diarrhea of the mouth will not be noticed. He seems to think the way has already been cleared for him to talk about as much craziness and he pleases.


Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.

Floridafish's picture
***

Give him time because I'm sure this goofball will be around for years. Which is a scary thought in itself.

Different Anonymous's picture
.

Definitely on to something there. I think Rand even went on Maddow's program to show he's not askeert of her, pity he ended up being Tucker Carlson-ed, by a...a...a girl! These clowns get so wrapped up in their own hubris they forget that they live in a very tiny bubble, that is easily popped by an actual newsperson.

mausium's picture

Young Rand seems to think that because he is his father's son, diarrhea of the mouth will not be noticed.

I was going to argue with you initially, but it does make sense that the son is aping his fathers' beliefs, only less effectively. He's been coddled by the Von Mises crew and his beliefs have never really been properly questioned. This leads to the current problems where he's breaking out into the national view, where even the conservative-friendly media is getting queasy at his level of bullshit.

Look out for thorns and scab....


"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."

---Southwest Airlines

Rachel managed to do what other couldn't or didn't bother doing. She showed Rand for what he really is. She should get a journalistic award for that.


Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.

fastfeat's picture

I wanted her to hang him, but he did a fine job himself. Like fishing, it takes just the right touch on the bail...


"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."

---Southwest Airlines

1openmind's picture

When you hear the brilliant Rachel Maddow analyze what his ridiculous thinking really means (and help us understand what his followers really think), you realize we can not dismiss him as simply 'stupid', his kind of thinking threatens us all.

Marnie's picture

What makes Ayn Rand Paul's willingness to allow discrimination by race is, that those who think that way or who don't believe there is racism (that is whites, of whom I am one) always assume they are immune from discrimination.

Yeah there have been a few reverse racism suits but honestly does any Caucasian in this country honestly believe that they would be denied, totally denied, access to a motel, theater, public bathroom, job, public office, department store because they are white? Do they really believe that they would ever be faced with a “No Honkeys Served” sign on any business?

Of course not. So people like Racist Rand know they will not suffer if racism is loosed on the American public again.

And they would not have that sense of hubris if they were not racist. The one attitude is the proof of the other attitude.

Re: racism, as Chris Rock once pointed out in a stand-up routine, "Ain't one white person who would change places with me - and I'm RICH!"

Rebel Countess's picture

We all go for comic relief, but we should be looking more closely at that oil spill and its consequences.

This article:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100520/ts_alt_a...

about the Cajuns and the Choctaws really gave me pause.

These people survived Katrina(barely)and now are being hit again and abandoned again.

Thank you Ms. Rachie, what a fine piece of analysis that you present.
We should be grateful that MSNBC snatched you from the obscurity of Air America Radio.


'Talk to the hand'

Robert Fuller's picture

You can't legislate people's beliefs. That's what forcing decisions with privately owned property amounts to. Once you introduce a gun, i.e., government force, to change minds, you're a criminal.

Does your neighbor have the *right* to be a racist? If you say no, then why stop there? I'm sure he has many beliefs beyond that you would find abhorrent. How about we just have the government issue a list of opinions every year, and we send in the goons after those who deviate.

Interesting how you people can stand in the middle of a country in a state of disaster, broke, verging on 3rd world status, dropping bombs on women and children, and cop a snide attitude toward the only people in the political realm who are suggesting a change in policy.


The purpose of Crooks and Liars is to keep small-minded individuals thinking in terms of the left vs. right garbage they've been trained to respond to.

Radically Moderate ad infinitum's picture

We are talking about acts of discrimination NOT opinions.
sorry for you that you cannot see the difference.


'Talk to the hand'

Different Anonymous's picture
.

You can't legislate people's beliefs. That's what forcing decisions with privately owned property amounts to.

Utter hogwash. "Privately owned" property does not exist in a vacuum, it's a part of a larger society. Legislation tells us what our society is willing to accept, and what it won't. We've decided that some guns don't belong in the hands of civilians, so yes, we want that enforced, even if it means some cretin won't be able to use it as a masturbation aid on those dark, lonely nights. You're not asking to "change minds," you're asking that a member adhere to the rules of the society where he lives. Don't like it? Move to Somalia where government regulations are non-existant.

the only people in the political realm who are suggesting a change in policy.

Uh, dunno if you've been spending too much time at the tea party, but many even here have been suggesting dramatic changes in policy, only ours tend toward the good of the whole, as opposed to the greed of the few.

Robert Fuller's picture

Different Anonymous...who's "we"? Is it that same "we" that once held that blacks were animals? "We" had a lot of strongly held beliefs then, too. Did the fact that "we" agreed on them make them okay? No? Maybe "we" is a convenient term to hide behind when you want to hold a gun to someone's head.

So there's no privately owned property, eh? So I have a right to your shoes, your wallet, to kindly let myself into your home because we're part of the same larger society? No, you're actually pretty adamant about private property rights, I guarantee you that. You've just deluded yourself with a bunch of hazy ideas that you can't make literal sense of.

"The good of the whole" can't be defined either, ignoramus. Your narrow version of "the good of the whole" can, and by your methods, those who disagree get the old gun to their head.

No, "Radically Moderate," you're talking about telling someone what decisions they must make with property that they legally own. That's the bottom line, and it's tyrannical. You can't get around it on the basis of whether or not you judge their decision to be morally right. The morality of it is completely subjective. Were the situation reversed, if racist views were still predominant, say, if someone risked legal punishment *for* allowing blacks in their diner, would you argue that the government had the right to enforce the most popular version of morality by punishing this guy? No, you would say he had the right to let whoever he wanted in his establishment. What if he forbid racists from coming in to his diner? Would you argue that he had no right to discriminate against people on the basis of his anti-racist beliefs, and the government should force him to serve these people? If not, then you're a hypocrite.


The purpose of Crooks and Liars is to keep small-minded individuals thinking in terms of the left vs. right garbage they've been trained to respond to.

No, "Radically Moderate," you're talking about telling someone what decisions they must make with property that they legally own.

OK, if that's your take, then if I owned a restaurant, which would be my PRIVATE property, then I could invite people in to cook meth in there, smoke pot in there, serve alcohol to minors, and employ prostitutes, since the government has no right to legislate what I do in my own private establishment?

Right? According to your "logic" it is.

Radically Moderate ad infinitum's picture

and you could avoid paying taxes too.....who needs rules, right RF.


'Talk to the hand'

ikalbertus's picture

I once worked for a carpenter who was so obsessed with property rights that he said he was going to pour insecticide into the stream that ran through his land just because he could, and it was his property. Most of these people can't deal with any gray area, where the good of society interfaces with the desires of the individual. The fact that one individual practicing his "rights" may take something away from many more individuals is subservient to the rigid ideology.

It's always a difficult dynamic and libertarians take the view that any government policy to protect "the greater good" is tyrannical. That certainly simplifies things but I really don't want to live in the 1800's again. This troll tries to conflate attitudes ("forbidding racists") which invoke the monster in the closet thought police with specific policy. Back to the "government is evil" mantra.

Radically Moderate ad infinitum's picture

and if that carpenter noticed that all the fish in his creek were dead because someone upstream decided to exercise HIS property rights that carpenter would be screaming at the government to intervene.


'Talk to the hand'

Robert Fuller's picture
No,

the carpenter can make the legal case that whoever's polluting is interfering with his, the carpenter's, private property and resolve it int he courts. I know it's a nicer idea to have Hitler come in and tell everyone how they can behave, but it just never seems to work out....


The purpose of Crooks and Liars is to keep small-minded individuals thinking in terms of the left vs. right garbage they've been trained to respond to.

Radically Moderate ad infinitum's picture

You are sounding more shrill by the moment.


'Talk to the hand'

Robert Fuller's picture

Kind of overwhelmed by the backwardness here.


The purpose of Crooks and Liars is to keep small-minded individuals thinking in terms of the left vs. right garbage they've been trained to respond to.

Radically Moderate ad infinitum's picture

Come back more often.....you might learn something that could benefit your existence of misery.


'Talk to the hand'

ikalbertus's picture

.

mausium's picture

Where trolling is more encouraged. Thinkprogress, for example.

miss_kitty's picture

thread's over...

Robert Fuller's picture

Except the part about minors, you've named victimless "crimes." If nobody's forcing anyone, then it's all okay by me.

If you were able to think clearly, you'd spend some time analyzing your government's crimes, which go beyond anything you can name from garden variety lowlifes. Instead, you're on your knees begging to be monitored and babysat.


The purpose of Crooks and Liars is to keep small-minded individuals thinking in terms of the left vs. right garbage they've been trained to respond to.

Radically Moderate ad infinitum's picture

Oh, you are are a sick puppy. Ask the victims how victimless they feel.
What planet, er, country are you from?


'Talk to the hand'

Robert Fuller's picture

Gauge drug addiction, human suffering, etc., under the biggest, most well-intentioned government efforts to save us from ourselves that history has ever seen. All the problems are worse.


The purpose of Crooks and Liars is to keep small-minded individuals thinking in terms of the left vs. right garbage they've been trained to respond to.

Radically Moderate ad infinitum's picture

Much.


'Talk to the hand'

Robert Fuller's picture

Just pointing out that it's not workable in a practical sense, as well as a moral sense.


The purpose of Crooks and Liars is to keep small-minded individuals thinking in terms of the left vs. right garbage they've been trained to respond to.

Radically Moderate ad infinitum's picture

Where are you from RF?

Correction:
That would be 234 years,10 and 1/2 months.


'Talk to the hand'

Dateline Baghdad 2108's picture

The War On Drugs 'well intentioned'?

There is nothing benevolent about this taxpayer funded government program. The War On Drugs is a FOR PROFIT OPERATION strictly enforced to generate revenue, control world drug trade - Afghanistan/ Columbia & promote Big Pharma.

And for some... an opportunity to suppress and imprison societies most undesirable in particular, blacks.


Frank Zappa - Make A Jazz Noise Here

mausium's picture

As our Military and Prison-industrial complex. None of the 3 lobbies for reducing their size, scope, or influence, obviously.

....analyzing your government's crimes....

So we agree that Bush and Cheney are war criminals by invading a country that did not attack us and posed no threat.

Instead, you're on your knees begging to be monitored and babysat.

Hardly. I certainly protested the Bush regime's illegal monitroing of private citizens via the mis-named Patriot Act. Wow, since we agree on these 2 things, I guess we have more in common than I realize.

Keep thinking.....one day you'll realize that the party that has you brainwashed and wants to keep you under its thumb is the Corporate Republican Party, motto, "Screw the non-white middle class and poor."

Radically Moderate ad infinitum's picture

If an establishment is open to the public and that establishment has access to public easements then those services should be available to anyone who comes through the door and can afford to pay for those services. One caveat would be that those persons should behave themselves in such a manner that will not in any way disrupt or cause damage to the establishment or the services that establishment offers. If a racist like, oh say you for instance walks through the door you should anticipate receiving the services that the establishment offers.......unless you wish to spew your racist diatribe then the owner has every right to deny you services.
Everyone has their individual biases and opinions but the defining line between thoughts and actions based on personal biases are quite clear.
I can discriminate in my personal decisions as to who I would invite onto my property, and RF dont expect an invitation anytime soon, but if I open my property and offer services to the public I cannot turn someone away based on race or ethnicity based on Federal Law.
There are many ordinances and laws that a business owner must adhere to in order to open a business and run it in a safe manner that is not detrimental for the safety, health, and well being of the public. If a business owner cannot abide by these ordinances and laws they will not be in operation for very long.


'Talk to the hand'

Floridafish's picture
***

Robert, are you serious, or is this just some kind of lame ass joke. You either advance as a society or you wither and die on the vine. To say that the term "we" is like holding a gun to someones head, so that they will comply with the advancement of a society, is utter bullshit. As opposed to the guns that were "actually" held to the heads of many people to stop their societies advancement. Some triggers were even pulled, unlike your metaphoric bullshit.

Robert Fuller's picture

"we" I said is a term people use to avoid taking responsibility for their tyrannical tendencies. Hitler was a "we" kind of guy, pursuing his version of the greater good.


The purpose of Crooks and Liars is to keep small-minded individuals thinking in terms of the left vs. right garbage they've been trained to respond to.

Radically Moderate ad infinitum's picture

That is two times not that you have invoked Hitler.
Run out of valid arguments so soon?


'Talk to the hand'

Robert Fuller's picture

You're attacking my invoking Hitler over the reason I brought it up. My point is, there's your most obvious example of controlling people for someone's individually held vision of the greater good. That's what you're arguing in favor of, whether or not you can reason to the end of your own ideas. A trite example, maybe, but the point is valid.


The purpose of Crooks and Liars is to keep small-minded individuals thinking in terms of the left vs. right garbage they've been trained to respond to.

Radically Moderate ad infinitum's picture

Did you realize when you typed that sentence that it was an oxymoron?
Republic v Hitler......Republic wins!


'Talk to the hand'

ikalbertus's picture

"Hitler was a "we" kind of guy. Wow, I never really understand Hitler and the whole Third Reich thing so well until you summed it up with this one statement. Thank you for that enlightenment. Obviously anyone who believes that government can be a force for good is of the same mindset that brought about the Nazis. You're are absolutely brilliant RF.

mausium's picture

All I see here is trolling and some crap about the first amendment and thoughtcrimes and you responding to arguments that do not exist.

Make an actual argument and there will be more to discuss. Until then, you're talking to yourself.

Annoyed Canuck's picture

Nobody's talking about legislating anyone's beliefs. This is not desirable or even possible.

It's a matter of legislating and enforcing peoples' RIGHTS.

It's the Civil RIGHTS Act - not the Civil Beliefs Act.

Is that clear enough? Do you get it?

Who are you to talk about 'you people' (meaning Liberals) legislating their beliefs?!? YOU PEOPLE (meaning fundamentalist Conservatives) have worked hard for years to legislate YOUR beliefs, YOUR morality as the law of the land. A few of many examples of this:

- no marriage or even civil unions for gay people.

- banning of contraception and family planning advice to young people.

- so-called 'faith-based initiatives' to hand public services to religious organizations and churches.

- prayer in schools, 10 Commandment monuments in courthouses, mandated national prayer days, etc, all in violation of the Establishment Clause.

- state-funded and mandated rewriting of history books to expunge perceived Liberal bias and even historical events (slavery, civil rights, the union movement, the environmental movement, etc), to be replaced with openly Conservative interpretations and emphasis.

Spot on, canuck!

ikalbertus's picture

But this guy RF is simply a case in point of the mindset. He's not going to give up his talking points as handholds for his ideology. Like a steel trap that's shut.

Pete Seattle's picture

for the media to get on board the apple not falling far from the tree angle to this story.
thanks, David.

mausium's picture

But it's rotten and filled with worms.

"There is, after all, a simple reason the Pauls attract racists to their campaigns:"...

"Ashley Todd had claimed that her car's tires had been slashed and campaign material had been stolen from her car because of her support for Republican politician Ron Paul"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just another symptom of the God-virus... it's a purity thing. The "unalienable rights" given to us by our creator(s), is often misconstrued at will... and much strife follows in its wake.

Like Rachel Maddow, from Massachusetts... here is another courageous women, who was courageous enough to address civil rights.


Study the symptoms not the virus...

ikalbertus's picture

should take the intellectual high road that Paul travels.

Dateline Baghdad 2108's picture

The father-son comparison while, well apt, pale in compare to where these two now hail from... Texas and Kentucky.

Although, Ron Paul was born & raised unfortunately, my home town Pittsburgh, PA he made his way to deep east Texas following a career as an Air Force flight surgeon where his views readily fit the landscape of white racist oil/gas/timber producers, ranchers and bankers. Having lived in east Texas and making good friend there the state was socially retarded. Like Florida there are pockets in east Texas where slavery still exists.

Son Rand sets up shop in Kentucky, the only state that West Virginia proudly can look down upon. Now that's backward.

While the Paul's bullshit plays well in areas that still support R.E. Lee and the Confederacy it just doesn't play so well in more advanced civilized parts of the country.


Frank Zappa - Make A Jazz Noise Here

mausium's picture

Sinks to its own level, I suppose.

But even still, there are pockets of bigotry in even the most "progressive" of states.

weebles53's picture
wow

that sure is some ugly regional prejudice you got there.

everybody in tx is a low brow, ppl in kentucky-do you want to add inbred and toothless to your sterotype you got there winky?

look at the primary numbers.

by the way once in pittsburg i had a flat tire--fuck you pittsburg!


the security this website has for registration is goofy.

Dateline Baghdad 2108's picture

Ever been to Provo?


Frank Zappa - Make A Jazz Noise Here

Free speech is not free commerce. I wish she could've told Mr. Paul that during her interview. At least she see summed it up nicely here at the end of her segment. Mr. Paul could be sincere in that he harbors no bigotry, but his pure libertarian zealousness for commerce has no Constitutional basis, i.e., he's a wacko.

bombed the towers

the guy has harbored a grudge against his daddy for naming him after a crazy lady

and like the boy named sue...he is out to get his revenge

btw, goldwater also apologized for his stance on the civil rights act

bbob's picture

Most of the people I know who supported Ron Paul during his presidential campaign did it because of his stand against the federal government's drug policy. Basically, they were potheads. Not that there's anything wrong with that. One of my co-workers was a big Ron Paul guy back then and when I pointed out Paul's racist stands, he changed his support. They were basically liberals who thought that this guy might make their "habit" legal.

smotviddy's picture

Hey look at me! I have props! See when I strike this fork and ground it, it produces this shrill noise? That's the sound of racism! I'm not actually claiming he is racist, but it sure sounds like he is am I right? GIVE ME A BREAK

This is how the MSM buries views that don't fit the paradigm they have created. Maddow claims Rand Paul supports the "right to discriminate". This is laughable propaganda spin. He believes in RIGHT TO PROPERTY! And it's not like Maddow doesn't know Paul's views. For her to claim otherwise is extremely dishonest.

Andy K's picture

You know not of what you speak. Australia is not America.

LeftandLeft's picture

Look clown, Rand Paul is a grown man responsible for his own stupid words.

mystag's picture

Certain statements, like it or not, can be assumed racist depending on the beliefs of the person or persons hearing those statements. In some cases there is no question:

"I hate all Mexicans."

No question that would be a racist statement. We can all agree on that.

"I'm sick of subsidizing illegal aliens with my tax dollars."

Now there's a statement that can be inferred to be racist against Mexicans, OR just a simple opinion from someone that believes ALL people, regardless of origin, should come to this country legally. If someone would like to lump that person in with racists, so be it. That would be a matter of opinion based on ones own prejudicial views of the world as they see it.
The thing to look out for is when someone is labeled a racist without being one. That's the kind of stigma that does not go away, and can destroy someones life. Is Rand Paul a racist? Maybe, maybe not. If so, the people he wishes to represent would make short work of him within no time anyway, and his political future would be non-existent. As it should be.
IF he's a racist.

merkin's picture

According to the Fountainhead, Dr. Rand (Ayn) Paul government ONLY has the power to regulate itself...

BIG THANKS to RM for calling out the INSANITY of Libertarianism

Radically Moderate ad infinitum's picture
;-)

Got your back bro.


'Talk to the hand'

BlueCollarCritic's picture

I had hoped that the C&L website would prove to be an unbiased take on the media but so far it’s just another 1 sided (left leaning as opposed to right) rant that ignores the truth and spins the BS to sell the agenda of their side which is the left side.

The fact about the Maddow interview is that she intentionally used the video & audio feeds delay to try and corner Rand Paul into supposedly saying he wanted to repeal the CIVIL RIGHTS law when the fact is he did not. I find it very interesting how after several months’ time has passed the writers on this site have yet to provide an update pointing out this significant fact. When Maddow asked him if he wanted to repeal this act he was responding to the question he was hearing in his headset about whether he could hear them or not. Anyone with any experience in TV/Radio knows this trick which does get used more often in radio then TV since its far easier to pull off with just audio when the guest is not in the studio.

You can choose to ignore the truth, that this was a cheap shot by Maddow that has been proven to be a setup and ask yourself why the Crooks & Liars website folks have yet to come out and at a minimum point this out even if they disagree with it or you can continue to live in your left side of the fantasy world created by both the Right & Left win political parties who win by keeping the Conservative/Right Wing and the Liberal/Left Wing constantly fighting and therefore unable to see what they are quietly getting away with in DC.

You can wake up or not; your choice.

BlueCollarCritic,
“Righting the BS spin from both the left & right side”

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