Somewhat predictably, the professional fearmongers at Fox News have been hosting all kinds of segments about the currency riots in Greece suggesting that "America could be next!" (Of course, the corollary to this is "it's all Obama's fault".)
So of course the situation was ripe for Rep. Ron Paul to bring his own unique brand of wingnuttery to the airwaves, which he happily did Thursday for Megyn Kelly on Fox's America Live program:
Kelly: You know, it's really scary to see what can happen in a society when the overspending comes home to roost -- you know, when you see the consequences of years and years of overspending. Obviously people here are very worried about our debt and our deficit. Congressman Paul, could this kind of thing happen here? Could what we're seeing in Greece and California happen on a nationwide basis here?
Paul: Oh yeah. Absolutely. There's going to be anger, and there's going to be riots in the streets as well.
But this is all a consequence of the fact that why and how do governments spend like this? It's because they don't have sound money. When we run up deficits, we tax, but never enough. We can't tax, it would ruin the economy. Then we borrow, and we get away with that for a long time. But we rely on the printing presses from the Federal Reserve to create the money, and that's where the problem is.
This is why we have to look at the Federal Reserve, we have to get an audit of the Federal Reserve, we have to look at the monetary system and the dollar system, because you can't have fake money. This is counterfeit! And we've been operating like this since 1971. At no time in the history of the world has the whole world been on fiat money for so long -- building up these financial bubbles, distorting the economies and running up all this debt. And it has to be paid for.
Now, Paul manages to sound reasonable in all this, but this is really quite a display of far-right extremism: after all, he just called the American dollar counterfeit. And though he never utters the words "gold standard" here, that's what he's talking about: The United States removed the dollar from the gold standard in 1971.
This extremism is at the root of his advocacy for an audit of the Fed, and why he joined up with Alan Grayson in his efforts to get a bill requiring an audit of the Fed through Congress. It's also why he's so furious at the compromise hammered out by Grayson and Sen. Bernie Sanders to get answered the questions about some of its decisions after 2007 -- because it doesn't give Paul the broad perennial tool he sought for destroying the Fed altogether.
DDay had a powerfully insightful post on this:
Now I know Ron Paul and some libertarians are angered by this deal. But understand that Ron Paul doesn’t want an audit of the Federal Reserve. He wants to end the Federal Reserve. The best-selling book “End the Fed” that he wrote tipped me off to this. He wants to go back to hard-money policies and a return to the gold standard. Now, you can argue that this would end the cartel of central bankers scheming with their monetary policy, or that it would turn US monetary policy into the inflation-uber-alles laissez-faire mess we’re seeing in Europe that is threatening a global depression. The consequences for Paul’s favored end-state would be catastrophic if implemented in real time. This Fed is failing in different ways – and their actions should draw more scrutiny – but eliminating it would return us to the Stone Age.
And so you should probably know who you’re dealing with. There’s no good reason for the restrictions on this particular audit, but in its streamlined form, it seeks to answer one question – what did the Fed do on an emergency basis with two trillion dollars in taxpayer money. Not only does the Sanders amendment force an answer to that question, it opens it up to public scrutiny in ways that Paul-Grayson didn’t. As Baker says, this is a beginning and not an ending for transparency and accountability.
David Vitter may offer the original proposal for a vote and more power to him. But an audit really is just an audit. Ron Paul wanted to use an audit as a tool to destroy the Fed.
Ron Paul, a fake libertarian, Goldbug John Bircher, has a very different agenda than progressives on almost everything and his support for auditing the Fed is based upon different goals. Therefore, when the legislation changed in ways that don't advance that goal he is unhappy.
...
Progressive economists call the compromise a "big victory." Paul's balking because the legislation no longer fits his agenda. That's fine. The senate came on board because of the changes and the conference will probably change it again. This is just plain old sausage making that benefits the progressive side for once. Unless one actually agrees with Ron Paul's kooky Fed obsession, there's no reason to care what he thinks about it.
I've written a great deal over the years about Ron Paul and his deep background as a far-right extremist, including his fetish about the Federal Reserve:
Along the way, Paul developed as one of his major ongoing themes the extremist belief that the Federal Reserve is an illegitimate authority, that our current monetary system is built upon a house of cards and is due momentarily to collapse, and that to avoid such a fate we must return to the gold standard and abolish the Fed.
Notably, Paul makes only passing reference to this at his campaign Web site:
In addition, the Federal Reserve, our central bank, fosters runaway debt by increasing the money supply – making each dollar in your pocket worth less. The Fed is a private bank run by unelected officials who are not required to be open or accountable to "we the people."
He's much more explicit about all this in his book The Case for Gold, which takes old far-right theories about the legitimacy of the monetary system and launders them of their sometimes explicit anti-Semitism and presents them as devout and reasoned patriotism.
These arguments, in fact, have had some currency on the extremist right for some years now, having been a favorite theory of the Posse Comitatus and various tax protesters, including the Montana Freemen, who themselves picked it up from other conspiracy theorists, and then used it for creating fictitious monetary systems of their own. As I explain in Chapter 5 of In God's Country: The Patriot Movement and the Pacific Northwest:
The Freemen justified this with an argument straight out of Roy Schwasinger's seminars: The federal government was bankrupt and illegally printing bogus money anyway, money that no longer had any basis, since the government took the dollar off the gold standard in 1971. So the Freemen were free to create their own money out of equally thin air -- not only that, but by basis of the "constitutional" nature of the common-law courts that issued the liens, their system was more legitimate than the federal government's.
The alternative-universe notion that the Federal Reserve system prints "funny money" based on no real foundation has floated about on the far right for years, and is a key component of some cult belief systems like Lyndon LaRouche's. In reality, the modern international monetary system is based on the economic engine behind each kind of currency -- the levels of supply and demand that a nation produces. It is, like all economic systems, essentially a mental construct, but it has very real grounding in the work of producing goods and services within each nation. The American dollar's continuing strength abroad is a reflection of our nation's output; indeed, it is still considered the basis of most international currency rates.
Those who argue that money must be based on some hard commodity -- usually gold and silver -- ignore the fact that when a currency is based on gold, the value given to gold is as essentially arbitrary as that assigned to paper currency. That is, the value of gold would rise and decline according to the value of the output behind the economic system using it as a standard. Indeed, since gold is still used in manufacturing and jewelry-making, the crossover between gold as a commodity and gold as an expression of currency had the tendency to destabilize the currency system, which is why the United States went off the gold standard in 1971.
These tax-protest theories extended to other beliefs, including the notion that the Internal Revenue Service is an illegitimate agency and the federal income tax a scam. As the ADL explains in this report, have been circulating on the fringe right for some time now, mostly in the guise of the tax-protest movement. And Ron Paul has been one of their leading figures in the past decade.
I'm frankly baffled by progressives who believe that Ron Paul is the kind of politician who potentially could be part of a "transpartisan" politics. Paul in reality -- judging by his behavior, his support, and his actual record in Congress -- is someone far out on the right, a leader of a faction whose primary fuel is an animus toward all things progressive.
Progressive alliances with Ron Paul need of necessity be short-lived and of limited scope, because his entire long-range purpose is the destruction of our values: women's reproductive rights, civil rights for minorities, public education, environmental protections, public health care -- all of which Paul has a demonstrated animus towards. Anyone deluded enough to believe Ron Paul represents a long-term opportunity for progressives is in the end naively selling out the values they supposedly espouse.


Rep. Ron Paul to bring his own unique brand of wingnuttery to the airwaves
As I've said for years on this site...if you scratch a libertarian hard enough, you will find a nut inside.
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
You don't have to scratch very hard.
Really. Just rub with a damp cloth and these right wing extremists all end up showing their true colors.
Now, Paul manages to sound reasonable in all this, but this is really quite a display of far-right extremism: after all, he just called the American dollar counterfeit.
Dave, from your sentence here, you seem to state that far right extremism is reasonable.
And yes. The fed has printed too much money and that has raised questions in many people's minds as to the stability of our currency. Counterfeit is not that hyperbolic.
The 30 year Treasury Bond rate is about four and a half percent. Inflation is just over two percent. How does that translate into printing too much money?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
For the last round of bail outs, we created money out of thin air, in addition to borrowing it from China. The dollar has been devalued considerably and our buying power sucks compared to what it was worth when our parents were our age. I believe much of this has come from Greenspan's policies. Who is Greenspan again?
The Fed's role was to prevent bubbles, instead it exacerbated them and left a huge unregulated door open for fraud. Now I'm on a thread where progressives are defending this monstrosity and Obama's encouragement not to audit.
if ANY party or individual gained from that 16 minute computer 'malfunction' this week. Unfortunately, they'll only find more SEC attorneys downloading and burning porn.
is that the exchange invalidated all trades that occurred during that blip.
But your question still stands: Did anyone try to profit off that anomaly? Because it's worth investigating how they knew it would happen.
I'm not accepting "computer malfunction" ..
Someone TOLD that computer to do that ..
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
that said, "SOMEONE'S FAT FINGER MISTAKEDLY PUSHED THE WRONG BUTTON."
Someone's "fat finger"????
Uh-huh. Right.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
All trades were canceled for that three minute period? That doesn't sound right. The market did not snap back to exactly where it was.
and not ALL trades--just for the corporations affected:
http://www.suntimes.com/business/2246592,CST-...
But the nation's stock markets agreed to "bust," or invalidate, certain trades during the crucial 20-minute window. An advisory from the Chicago Stock Exchange said the busted trades will be for prices that were at least 60 percent higher or lower than the previous trade.
Oh my God Nicole that is not a forgiven trade. That means you could have lost as much as 59% on your security during the panic that was caused before your trade would have been canceled. That's devastating.
No really that is a huge range because Proctor and Gamble, the lead loser was down at its worst about 60%. I would be interested to see the ratio of trades completed to number of trades canceled. There were many stocks not involved with the cancellation. I'm sure many people lost a lot of money yesterday.
To call for a wide open investigation into the events leading up to the TARP bailout and the events in the fall of 2008 with Paulson, Bernanke, Geithner and Co.
I believe that Ron Paul is more interested in TRANSPARENCY IN THE FINANCIAL markets than Barack Obama.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
but that doesn't equate to trustworthiness, Abbybwood.
Paul also believes we should repeal Roe v Wade.
I think that's David's point. He's right on some discrete issues, but he is not a progressive's friend, because ultimately, his agenda is not anywhere near ours.
Paul's views on abortion are just batshit, right-wing drivel. They're not even libertarian drivel. They're just nuts.
I wrongly assumed for a while that Paul opposed Roe for its Constitutional doctrine (with which even I have problems), but it's not so. He just thinks that every fetus, from the moment of conception, is a living, breathing, sentient creature, just like you and me.
Everyone is equally entitled to the pursuit of happiness. Wasn't that once self evident?
an evolution denier.
our DNA is connected to the neanderthal.
I was afraid of that.
His being a doctor gives credence to others who hold that view, in their own eyes.
I was hoping it was states rights, because what I remember was the early seventies when it was a pastiche of varying laws across the country.
But last night in the new PBS show Need To Know, the part about the pill in the early 60's made it clear it was stricter at that time, roughly contiguous with Griswold v Connecticut...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
My understanding is that genetic research shows that the Neanderthal and the Homo Sapiens, the latter of whom we are descended from, genetically could not breed together.
So any commonality in genes would be like with our cousins the chimps.
But to accept even that much one would have to accept Evolution.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I never did like it when we had the cousins for Thanksgiving dinner.
They tasted awful...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
it was on ABC with Diane Sawyer. The MSM is never wrong.
Nope. They just discovered otherwise ys. throw away all your old anthropology books.
Not only that. It was Man Neanderthals on Female Homo sapiens. But never the other way around. I guess the Homo Sapien guys were repulsed by the Neanderthal females.
What source? I'm sure if it was in a publication like Scientific American I could pull it up on line.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/05/08/tec...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Human accelerated regions (HARs), first described in August 2006, found in the human genome...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
What's wrong with that? Even "Jane Roe", Norma McCorvey, now also supports the repeal of Roe v. Wade and endorsed Ron Paul back in 2008.
Ron's stand on abortion makes a lot of sense - he wants to stop the wholesale federal ban / subsidy on abortion. If you want to legalize it, talk to your local community, neighbors and politicians.
Not a states' rights issue. Norma McCorvey is a born again evangelical Christian who is opposed to legal abortion for the protection of the zygote.
Read up. It's an extreme and unconstitutional position, and one, as a woman, I find particularly offensive.
YMMV, of course.
And you can do the same with free speech. Because, ya know, there was nothing that absolutely guaranteed local governments- your neighbors' representatives- from infringing upon free speech until the 14th Amendment incorporated the Bill of Rights to the states.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
"local community, neighbors and politicians" consider [fill-in-the_blanks] as second-class citizens and unworthy of the same right that they have? In this case, Women.
Sod that noise! And I'm saying that as a white hetro-norm male.
but Barack Obama believes in a magic man up in the sky that listens to your prayers.
WTF does any of that have to do with the freaking Federal Reserve?
"but Barack Obama believes in a magic man up in the sky that listens to your prayers."
The difference may just be...
...Barack Obama "You know, my faith is one that admits some doubt."
I think he shares some of his Mother and Father(s) dis-beliefs? ;)
Study the symptoms not the virus...
to do exactly what he says. The problem is the consequences would be utterly disastrous.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
We should never audit the Federal Reserve.
I feel just fine knowing that these magnanimous men have our best interest at heart.
We're not saying don't audit the Fed. We're saying be cognizant that someone who shares that message with you might not have the same end goal in mind.
Well, the fat finger theory is out. The rumor about one trader entering billion instead of million was impossible. So, chalk it up to computer trading stop orders cascading on an already falling market, or chalk it up to we're in deep shit in the very near future.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/203603-the-ye...
Big spike in a yen carry trade right before the crash.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/203609-more-o...
That blogger builds on the theory and suspects the carry trades also tied to EU trade frezzes, then feeding into something that goes on 6 paragraphs but sounds like too many high speed stop loss orders invoked too fast making chaos.
Who did those yen carry trades?
there is NO FAT FINGER. The 1000 point plunge was merely the house of cards collapsing... European banking houses stopped lending (given what is happening in Greece/Portugal and to a lesser extent, Italy). Liquidity vanished from the market and credit markets essentially froze. When you turn off the spigot all kinds of things happen. A 1000 point plunge is the least of your problem.
What is happening is that the "bazooka" Paulson talked about isn't working this time. The mere promise of bailouts and financial backing is not keeping the credit markets liquid and our economy is fused at the hip with the Eurozone's economy.
Welcome to the global marketplace, my friends...
You write that as if there was never a global financial crisis before.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
this is the first, tbh. That's important to remember. Yes, the world has experienced global meltdowns before, but how many of us lived through it and have the fortitude to handle it? I would wager not many....
Unfortunately, they'll only find more SEC attorneys downloading and burning porn.
Wow, you say that like it's a bad thing! :)
What you fail to acknowledge is that when the Fed printed up an assload of cash in late '08, it nipped spiraling deflation in the bud.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
That's b/c the gov't isn't borrowing 30-yr t-bonds anymore - most of th gov't debts are short-term bills.
Enjoy 2% inflation while it lasts - and, no, this has nothing to do with the Fed's inflation targeting.
any person who expects the same bastards who are rigging the game are going to be honest about the inflation rate (because let's be honest, it's the SAME people controlling both groups)... well, I've got some oceanfront property in AZ to sell you (where you won't be profiled and the land value is sky-rocketing and will double in no time!)... ;)
this site wouldn't bash Ron Paul so much. He is a good man, and genuinely wants what is best for Americans. He isn't like these idiots like Palin and Hannity and Bachmann. He doesn't lie. He doesn't try to trick people. He doesn't say and do things because it is politically expediant. If he think s we could have Greece type rioting here, it because he genuinely thinks that could happen. He says what he means, and alot of the things he says are right. To lump him in with these other idiots isn't right. Ron Paul doesn't fear-monger. He speaks his mind. No matter what his politics are, that's refreshing.
and Dennis Kucinich and ask them their opinions of Ron Paul's monetary positions.
I'll be patiently waiting to see the outcome of your interviews.
Audio/video would be great!!!
Thanks.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
I think David Neiwert acknowledged in his post that much of what Paul said makes sense, and that indeed, there can be common cause to be made with him on certain issues.
His point was that people must understand that people like Paul and people like Grayson, whose philosophies overlap on particular issues, come from very different starting points and have very different end goals.
I don't think it can be denied that Ron Paul is a hard-right libertarian. Grayson and Kucinich, on the other hand, are lefties, who may or may not acknowledge libertarian influence on their thoughts. Can they work together? Of course. I've advocated libertarians and progressives work together forever. Especially to fight authoritarians, who largely control this country.
But they view the world differently from each other, and it's important to recognize that.
Everyone is equally entitled to the pursuit of happiness. Wasn't that once self evident?
Well said, Karen.
...Paul supports the Separation of School and State. Ask Kucinich and Grayson about that.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Well, Grayson joined Paul in his audit effort last year; Kucinich doesn't understand economics (though Grayson got an econ degree from Harvard and has worked as an economists for a while).
Bernie Sanders introduced S 604 which was basically Ron Paul's HR 1207 to fully audit the Fed. A few days ago, someone got to old Bernie and he watered the bill down to nothing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7II2diHymv4
The fact that Grayson and Paul teamed up on the bill to audit the Federal Reserve.
As to Kucinich, I think he has a better understanding of economic issues than many give him credit for. When he ran for president he had Michael Hudson as his economic adviser.
Check out some videos of Michael Hudson. He's very hip to all things economic.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Sometimes Ron Paul doesn't do the best job of explaining himself,however I would not discount the man! As for our currency, well that's whole different beast! Have you ever ask youself why do we have a Federal Reserve? A privately owned bank by some of the richest people on the planet! Why does the Federal Reserve exist? Federal Reserve is just another name for the Central Bank. When you look at the history of our currency it's disgusting. President Lincoln wasn't assasinated because of slavery or state's rights! No he was shot because of the "greenback"! President Andrew Jackson broke up the central bank only for us to get it back with President Woodrow Wilson! Ron Paul is not to far off when he talks about counterfeit money!
President Lincoln wasn't assasinated because of slavery or state's rights! No he was shot because of the "greenback"!
Oh puh_LEEZ!!
Along the same line: Kennedy assassinated himself!
After his term in the House, he returned to Springfield and represented railroad companies in court.
BTW, you should go read Ta-Nehisi Coates' Confederate History Month posts at the Atlantic, or Dennis G's posts on the same topic at Balloon Juice (both wrote excellent series in April) so as to disabuse yourself of the notion that states' rights and slavery were two separate things to the Confederates.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
The point is that progressives and Paul cannot make a viable coalition on our core values.
Strange bedfellows are one thing, sleeping with the enemy something far more untenable. I cannot agree with much that Paul espouses, been through too much in my life to be that naive.
to see some liberal blogs slam politicians who have ALWAYS been on our side of the aisle and who want to see the same end result (like Bernie Sanders) in favor of Paul, with whom we might agree on a small discrete aspect, but overall, are no friend to progressives.
... for white people. If you have a tan however, well, Ron Paul would like to see the repeal of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, a law that outlawed racial discrimination in commerce, including hiring. The law was upheld by the Supreme Court, citing the commerce clause.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul188.html
"The federal government has no legitimate authority to infringe on the rights of private property owners to use their property as they please and to form (or not form) contracts with terms mutually agreeable to all parties. The rights of all private property owners, even those whose actions decent people find abhorrent, must be respected if we are to maintain a free society. "
Ron Paul believes that businesses should be allowed to not serve or hire black people, among others. This stance has made Paul the darling of the white supremacists. We can't lose this aspect of Paul when deciding on him as a whole.
But, to particular issues, he's is something worth a listen to. I recall during the Republican debates, he was the only one speaking against big war.
Your post is full of logical fallacies - false alternative, strawman to name afew.
Opposing the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (or the "war on poverty") by LBJ doesn't make you a racist or "want the best for white people", in the same way that supporting the repeal of the Patriotic Act ("the war on terror") won't make you less patriotic.
No, honey, a lot of libtards opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1957 by Eisenhower - Strom Thurmond and LBJ among them.
Strom Thurmond = libtard?
Thanks for stopping by, David Duke.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
well, meant to say "democrats"..
more logical fallacy: false dillema. got anything intelligent to say, eg, LBJ's racism?
use of epithets like "libtard" will earn you a quick banning.
Please avoid name calling and keep your comments civil.
so DamOTclese's comments and use of profanity are ok, but not name-calling?
You're not making any friends by starting off calling us "libtards". I said nothing about profanity, but yes, some words are out of bounds there too, and even the liberals on this site will be banned for using them.
Look, I LOVE engaging with conservatives on this site. But you do need to do it civilly. It's childish to point at someone else and say, "but what about them?" Take ownership of your own attitude and words and let the site monitors worry about the others.
Unless, of course, your design is to NOT engage with us, but simply throw out some names and be on your way.
I used it a couple of times when I started blogging and didn't think it served me well. Some bloggers can use it..
I come from Queens, NY so I use my fair share of it.
I'm a truck driver... I like to blame it on the BQE! ;)
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Ron Paul said in context to the Civil Rights Act of *1964*: " The federal government has no legitimate authority to infringe on the rights of private property owners to use their property as they please and to form (or not form) contracts with terms mutually agreeable to all parties. The rights of all private property owners, even those whose actions decent people find abhorrent, must be respected if we are to maintain a free society." Those are Ron Paul's words, not mine.
What this means is, that Ron Paul thinks it should still be legal for a hotel to be "white only" or a business to hire "white only" and so forth. That's a fact, Jack. His rationale is that "freedom of association" means that these "abhorrent" practices of property owners should be "respected". The Supreme Court ruled to the contrary, deciding under the Commerce Clause of the Constitution, that the Congress could forbid racial discrimination in commerce.
The intellectual arguments advanced by Paul to legitimize racial discrimination in commerce is the reason why he is the darling of the white supremacist movement. Paul may not be a racist himself, but he is advancing racial discrimination in commerce.
For the rest of the people out there, remember that the prohibition of racial discrimination in commerce is a statutory provision, not a constitutional right. As far as the constitution is concerned, that only prohibits discrimination in government functions, like education. (Brown vs. [some] Board of Education). The prohibition in commerce is statutory, and therefore could be undone by the Congress.
that he has not the slightest clue as to what would be best for Americans. Or anyone else for that matter.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
That's why the Birchers chose him as the keynote speaker at their 50th anniversary bash.
. . . they can always make sense. Why was December 2007 chosen as the cut-off? What happened before then, and why does it have to be such a secret?
The Dems desperately need goof-balls like Ron Paul; he makes them seem rational by comparison. I'm frankly baffled by progressives who consistently search for the looniest position out there in order to make Democratic capitulation look like progress.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
More food for fear.
Thanks, Kelly! Spoken like a true water-carrier for the fear mongers.
Check out this analysis of the *BiPartisan* committee of Billionaires and their lackeys appointed by Obama to promote the message of fear for our very existence if "we" don't tackle the imaginary debt crisis by cutting Social Security and Medicare.
It's not just the right wing crazies who peddle this crap.
What this country needs is financial regulation and raising taxes on those who already have way too much (and single payer universal health care), not "austerity measures" aimed at the working class.
The Real News: U.S. retirement benefits to be cut?
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
Republicans think that taxes are unfair. WTF?
The average Joe cannot be taxed because salaries are so designed where everybody is earning a "Hunger" income. The median when it comes salaries is the same for 90% of the American worker. Correct if I'm wrong. The reason? To keep us subjugated. You are allowed to earn a certain amount, and tha's it. Why? Why should we? I call it financial communism. Because salaries are so sorry, people cannot afford to pay taxes. We saw an article about that a few weeks ago. On the other hand, the rich, because they are rich, and according to them, they are already supporting us by giving us jobs, or the the falling crumms of their tables, they are of the opinion that they shouldn't either pay taxes. In other words, by being job givers, they already comply with their social fiscal obligation.
So at the end of the day, in America, nobody is paying taxes. However Bush gave 1.3 trillion tax cuts and went to war with money borroewd from China. So, somebody explain to me what is really happening with my country!!!
The median income for a FAMILY in the lower 90% (throw out the top 10%) is $30,000, about $1000 less than it was 30 or 40 years ago.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
"Check out this analysis ... if "we" don't tackle the imaginary debt crisis by cutting Social Security and Medicare."
Bill Clinton left office with surpluses. "
OMB (2000) projects that the federal budget will show a surplus until 2075 if discretionary expenditures grow with inflation, and until 2040 if discretionary spending grows with GDP." With those kinds of numbers, the treasury securities that Social Security held could be paid back.
With the inauguration of borrow and spend in 2001, championing the cause that "deficits don't matter", it was only a matter of time before the issue surfaced. Ending surpluses was key to not paying back Social Security.
Bush had a commission that looked at the treasury securities that Social Security held as follows: "They do not consist of real economic assets that can be drawn down in the future to fund benefits. Instead, they are claims on the Treasury that, when redeemed, will have to be financed by raising taxes, borrowing from the public, or reducing benefits or other expenditures."
The blueprint of the proposals we see today were drawn up in 2001. The idea is to cancel the treasury securities that Social Security holds, essentially retroactively converting past FICA payments into a flat income tax to subsidize the income tax cuts for the rich.
The Greeks are rioting over pension cuts, among other things. Social Security is essentially a part of our pensions. Of course, the question that they're trying to keep off the table is why Social Security cuts should come ahead of cuts in the world's policeman budget. And another question is whether the Bush tax cuts which transformed surpluses as far as the eye could see to unending deficits should be ended.
The Greeks are rioting over priorities. We have a similar priority issue.
Perhaps "imaginary" wasn't the best choice of words.
As one of the sane brains in the Real News video points out, the alleged problems with Medicare and Social Security amount to no more a percent of GDP than GW's tax cuts for the rich.
The problems are "imaginary" in that - to the extent they exist - they've been created by the elites for the elites and NOW they want We The People to pay off THEIR debts.
And, as the clip points out, those screaming the loudest for Debt reform are the wealthiest (and their lackeys) whose only interest is fattening their own wallets further by stoking fear of a problem that isn't a problem if THEY had the will to solve it.
So "imaginary" isn't all that bad a choice of words afterall, eh?
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
What they want to do is take the worker's pension, namely Social Security and convert it into tax cuts for the rich.
When you hear this noise about how we don't need class warfare, remember the war has already been started, and the rich are winning by a wide margin. The opening salvo was "borrow and spend" economics.
that's kind of what got Greece's tit in it's current wringer. The difference is that Greece has essentially no hope of getting out of this fix without a large bailout and some rather severe austerity measures while the US still has considerable maneuver room.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
but I think he is begining to show his age.
I am very happy to read your articles, more useful for me especially
I have the same thing with you. I am so very petrified of this in my lectures.
The Gold Standard DID impose a limit on a nation's ability to print and spend money.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
Does Paul also have it right when he defines this as a currency crisis instead of a financial crisis? Does everybody think things really are hunky dory?
Incidentally it is spreading over there. Romania made drastic changes to civil employment and pensions overnight.
The crises in Greece and Romania (and in Portugal) could happen here if the US takes the same route - austerities imposed upon the working class to reduce the debt created by the elites.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
I do agree with some of Paul's warnings. The Austrian schools models do a good job of exposing flaws in some of the other models. All models are just that, models, none are flawless nor perfect. But some of his solutions are ... not workable. And that is before we get to the gutting of social programs as solutions.
On his political positions, I'd have to say my Libertarian streak tells me the government has no business in my bedroom or my body. ;)
I've read a lot on financial pages, and the Greek scenario and full-on class war spreading to many places is something to watch. I think we haven't had people in the streets here since it isn't bad enough for most yet. A "Greek Solution" would fix that.
And to curt, it is both. The financial system is broken, but currency manipulation can be used to hide that and prop it up.
as the working class in Greece?
Well, OK only this one.
It's been almost 40 years, but this economy is gonna crater any minute now...any second.
Hee hee. That's a pretty good tip off. :)
Yes, Paul Bearers are hard-right libertarians. (Yes, there are left libertarians in the world.) There is common cause to be made with them on certain issues, but only strategic common cause.
Paul is correct that the way the Fed operates is a problem economically. And he's right that we can't just go on creating money out of thin air.
But I'd rather have Grayson in charge of auditing the Fed than Paul.
Everyone is equally entitled to the pursuit of happiness. Wasn't that once self evident?
the whole point is to keep away political influence while maintaining transparency.
no longer associates himself with the GOP, then we can talk. Til then, he's just another Nazi supoorting the Nazi party.
He doesn't have to join the Dems or even the left, but he needs to drop that (R) in order to have any credibility now.
Hi Lib.:)
I don't think he's poor.;)
What is your conceptual, continuity?
I WAS trying to fix that, til you rudely stopped me. He's a "poor" quality politician if that works.
:)
What?
Where's the love? No love? aww man,
Ok, he's a poor politician.:)
What is your conceptual, continuity?
♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥
How's that?
You can't have my Bud Light.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrSSSfYE2dQ
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
How do you make those cool hearts? I'd like to do some of those over at HP.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
But feel free to Ctrl C copy it and ctrl V paste it.
.
I guess I did something wrong....
Heh.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
... Open Character Map
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Sat, 05/08/2010 - 12:33 — mudshark
What?
Where's the love? No love? aww man,
_______________________________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBozTADyBb8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjJDekSculo
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
That insane right wing loon has a fairly large cult following. The "Ron Paul Culstists" are as fucking insane as the typical Creationist.
quite a few of the Neo-Nazis supporting him too. That is my reluctance to support him.
Do you know if Rich H was spirited away to Guantanamo? Has he been on today?
I saw him on another thread earlier.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
See earlier posts. I have to go somewhere or I'd find him for you.
because he preaches states rights. Well, heck, what better way to bring back Jim Crow?
Since, they try very hard to resurrect old, failed policies, and might as well carry their dude around in a coffin. :)
Everyone is equally entitled to the pursuit of happiness. Wasn't that once self evident?
Paul Bearers. That works.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
After all, in this poll he came within ONE POINT of beating our current sitting POTUS, not to mention several Republican straw polls he recently either hands down won or came in very strongly in:
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/04/po...
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
I think though, that the seductiveness of his position outside Libertarian/Conservative circles is that he seems to be the only one saying the economy is just totally broken.
They also don't know all his social positions ... he is scary to a social liberal. That and they haven't fully thought out the results of his solutions.
// and your link is missing the trailing "p"
/// Since my reply prevents edit
Abbybwood's Link
are entirely meaningless. You should know that.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
Write him off?! Heck no, I'm counting on him to be the GOP's Nader!
Split, baby, split!
All Reslugs are just hate monguering, racist losers.
Or are you just responding to some inner voice?
Around here that'll get your run over...
Oh that's right, paul's a doctor...
He'll fix you right up
And charge you the full bill
Since I doubt he believes in health care insurance...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
... doesn't believe in Health Care OR the public road Ron rode in on ...
To me governing is by nature problematic and even when actually democratic, fated to displease many. The Libertarian solution to this problem, is to relinquish self management, a Peter Pan world of abrogated power where there is no Captain Hook ...
I-Ron-ically this is the same (R)-goo-ment Captain Hook is making!
Snerd
Somewhat predictably, the professional fearmongers at Fox News have been hosting all kinds of segments about the currency riots in Greece suggesting that "America could be next!" (Of course, the corollary to this is "it's all Obama's fault".)
Geee, WHY would that be? Oh, that's right- IT IS.
Obama's policies have been largely contiguous with Bush's especially in terms of the economic problems at hand. So, yes, if the USA does go into another economic collapse, it WILL be Obama's fault, because he basically shovelled a trillion or so dollars into the rapacious maw of the banksters.
The consequences for Paul’s favored end-state would be catastrophic if implemented in real time. This Fed is failing in different ways – and their actions should draw more scrutiny – but eliminating it would return us to the Stone Age.
Bullshit. It would simply make the US govt RESPONSIBLE for its own money. Instead of borrowing it at interest from private banks, it would simply print what it needs, and grant loans as necessary. No dark ages - quite the opposite.
The Federal reserve IS PART OF THE PROBLEM, and just because some wingnut like Ron Paul hates it too, doesn't mean he's wrong.
The US govt should simply, and immediately, nationalise the banks that are failing into a new govt "US BANK". It should also eliminate the Fed and act like a grown up who is responsible for its own expenses. The US Govt should also cut the military budget by 90%. Who would invade the USA? Mexico? Hell no - they don't have to - they can just immigrate. Canada? Hell no - Canada thinks the USA is utterly daft and a very bad deal right now. So, NO ONE will invade the USA. The cold war is over, and as soon as you renounce empire and are still able to defend yourself, people will pretty much leave you alone.
I can't believe Niewert is defending the Fed. Jeepers, talk about clueless.
It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.
-George Carlin
This is the only post that makes any sense on the entire board. Why would Niewert or any thinking person advocate money as debt payable to the worlds richest? Indentured servitude.
Ditto.
...reading comprehension skills. David's argument isn't in defense of the Fed, but against Paul's support of the gold standard.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Ah ... The silver lining ... and setting the standard, as it were.
Snerd
Will anyone explain how using gold, silver, and other commodities as backing for competing currencies is such a bad idea?
The primary reason, imo, being that because there's a finite amount of gold (or silver), that when there's an economic crisis, it's much tougher to control the supply of money when required, especially when facing a deflationary spiral, when a larger supply is required to prevent major imbalances in the economy.
Say the price of widgets drops too far, the owner of the widget factory can't pay off his loans, so he lays off workers, who then can't pay off their mortgages, and none of them can afford doo-dads, so the doo-dad maker faces the same situation, and the doo-dad factory closes, which has an effect on the thingamajig industry...All of these people are locked into contracts- rents, mortgages, auto-loans- that they can't afford to repay, so the banks take back property, but take a loss. But the banks can't resell the homes or autos at anything near the value they loaned out, and the entire economy deflates. To counter this, the central bank, in whatever form, prints more money, inflating the economy so that the debts can be repaid at par. Follow?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Uh, there would be fiat currencies in the mix too. Most likely there would be some sort of Greenback-style U.S. Note (fiat) printed by the treasury (AND with NO DEBT to the Fed).
There wouldn't be a "standard" like a gold standard.
If one currency was failing, you would pay off your debts using another currency. It's not like ALL money would disappear.
That way every country can manipulate their currency to their own advantage like China is currently doing. And everybody will be rich.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
So who would you rather manipulate your currency? Congress or a secretive banking cartel?
OR you could have Congress manipulating ONE currency and also have a host of other currencies to choose from.
Don't read much history, do you? Ever hear of the Articles of Confederation?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
I guess you're thinking is limited to statism, in that a currency can only be conceived from a state (coercion and violence).
what I have now. A well respected Central Bank owned by the government but operated at arms length by it's governor. The governor is appointed to a seven year term and is free from political interference. That would be the bank of Canada.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
The Bank of Canada is the same as the bank of England is the same as the Federal Reserve.
There's no big differences in any of the central banks of world. They all control the debt-based currency of the whatever country they control.
Under Austrian school of thought you need to tie the currency to production in some fashion. Obvious solution, you tie it to a commodity. Historically gold, and in the US the gold standard.
The problem is that once gold becomes the currency AND a commodity it now has two values and is also open to the exact same manipulation as a currency, rendering that move futile. In the past countries had historical reserves and treaties going back centuries on gold to stop this. Gold also was not used much as a commodity.
The value of gold (as a currency) > the value of gold (as a commodity). Austrian model needs a tie to a valid commodity price, OOPS! The value of gold (as a currency) is currently being manipulated and is far higher than anyone would buy gold for after the currency crisis is over. So, it is now not a proper peg.
European manipulation of gold (mainly France, and West Germany) was one of the reasons Nixon took the Nixon shock. Here, for that.
Oil as de facto backing worked for a while, but then oil prices got manipulated, remember those economic shocks?
Paul's argument isn't necessarily in defense of the gold standard either, but against the fiat currency which is not sustainable.
rather than have regulations to try and prevent what happened. So if 99 % if Americans went to their banks for their cash. They would be out of luck. That might cause riots.
Jesus, more logical fallacies: false alternative.
That's the argument put forth by pro-bailout / pro-stimulus (namely Bush and Obama) - if you are against our bailout bill, you are in essence against America and advocating for the financial to collapse.
Regulations do nothing to fix the utopian housing / monetary policies that caused the crisis.
And, no. your bank never keeps 100% of depositors cash in their vault - if the bank reserve ratio is 10%, it lends out the other 90% for profit. So if 99% of Americans withdraw cash at the same time, we would be in trouble either way.
Paul's point however is that the Fed is going to damage control this by printing trillions of dollars making our saving effectively worthless.
It's a logical fallacy to say that smart regulations would have avoided this financial meltdown, but it's not a logical fallacy to say that the Fed is planning on printing trillions of dollars to make our savings essentially worthless?
I'm missing something.
Like taxes. Upper bracket taxes should have gone way up when it was evident that the tech bubble was creating a housing bubble in the Silicon Valley. When that didn't happen, we were certain to see the middle class scrounging for any loan they could get to pay $1 million for a two-bedroom bungalow.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
the best argument against Paulist policies and in favor of the bank bailout there is. If the Fed had not intervened there would have been mass bank runs and total failure of the banking system. Because they did this your savings are safe. Or has there been some exponential inflation that no one else has noticed?
Hasa Diga Eebowai
So you're cool with fractional reserve banking, because that's what allowed all the derivatives and leveraged securities that led to the disaster in the first place.
And no it didn't. The failure of political will to regulate the derivative markets and Greenspan's Randian faith, shared by Ron Paul, in the invisible hand as a market regulator led to the recent fiasco and will produce many more without proper regulation.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
Those shitty derivatives didn't exist in a vacuum. they were all based on a huge real estate bubble.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
and excess leverage causes bubbles. Chicken, meet egg.
in that fractional reserve was part of the problem. In a fiat currency, it is a confidence game. Derivatives allowed fractions very small, and once detected were distrusted as the likely junk they were.
Good analogy and prescription ... if the US was a nation state.
It's not. It's a corporate state, democratic in a fashion. However, as opposed to one citizen-one vote, it's one dollar-one vote, many dollars-many votes.
Political power therefore resides in the wealthy elite. They are not about to dismantle the political structure they own and that supports them.
Empire (and the military-industrial complex) therefore is not about politics per se, but is about protecting and extending corporate interests.
The only reasonable start in beginning to address this rigged game as I see it, is to take the money out of the political selection process ... i.e. publicly financed elections. You might actually start to get some politicians representing the citizen voting system, as opposed to the dollar voting system. Then your prescription might have some 'purchase', as it were ...
Snerd
I wholeheartedly concur.
The individual states have the same problem.
North Dakota is unique in that it has its own central bank.
North Dakota has a surplus.
All other states borrow from commercial banks.
How many other states currently have a budget surplus?
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
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