Red State hate on the killing of Dr. Tiller
The hate is already pouring in from the right after it was learned that Dr. Tiller was murdered today. Check out this comment from Red State. I'm not blaming Erick for writing this, but it points out the true feelings of many anti-choice zealots.
There's a suspect in custody now.
Tiller was serving as an usher at the church, one of six ushers listed in the church bulletin. He was handing out bulletins to people going into the sanctuary minutes before being shot.
A church member who did not want to be identified said the gunman threatened another person at the church after the shooting.
Tiller's family issued a statement through Wichita attorneys Dan Monnat and Lee Thompson. "Today we mourn the loss of our husband, father and grandfather. Today's event is an unspeakable tragedy for all of us and for George's friends and patients.
"This is particularly heart wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace."
Ian Welsh writes: One Third of All Late Term Abortion Doctors Killed Today
Tiller was one of only three doctors in the US who performed these sorts of abortions. That’s not because they’re illegal, it’s because the level of physical and legal harassment they and their staffs face is horrific, and it never, ever ends. It takes a very brave man or woman, and one who has decided to dedicate their life to the cause, to put up with constant threats, vandalism, legal harassment and the very real possibility of being murdered.
Tiller was incredibly brave and dedicated to do what he did. It’s highly unlikely that anyone will step up to replace him...read on
While some Christian groups have denounced the killing, the president of NARAL/NY, Kelli Conlin writes:
But it is cold-blooded, vicious actions like today’s assassination that make it hard for those of us in the pro-choice community to find common ground with those on the other side. It is lawless, violent behavior like this that makes us fear for our lives and our families. When they sit down across from us, they have no reason to believe that we come to the table with violent intentions. Today is a brutal reminder that we are not privileged to have the same sense of security.
We therefore call upon the leaders of the anti-abortion movement to go beyond condemning today's action to actually committing to control and measure their own irresponsible and incendiary rhetoric and actions.
When these anti-abortions leaders stalk us, harass us and label physicians “murderers,” they fan the flames to create a setting where abhorrent acts such as today's can transpire.
Our heart and our compassion go out to Dr. Tiller, his family, friends and colleagues. Our thoughts are also with all the other providers across this country who do their work in the face of violent opposition. We will continue to stand with them as they serve the women who need them every day.
The right will never take responsibility for the actions of violence that bubble up from their movement.
Planned Parenthood writes:
- Cecile Richards, President of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, today issued the following statement on the murder of reproductive health care provider Dr. George Tiller in Wichita, KS. The entire Planned Parenthood family is deeply saddened by the murder of Dr. George Tiller. While he was not a Planned Parenthood provider, he was an integral part of our community and his loss is felt by all of us.
Our thoughts and prayers go out to his family and those close to him who are suffering a personal tragedy. Dr. Tiller was the epitome of high quality medical care underscored by deep compassion for his patients. He provided critical reproductive health care services, including abortion services to women facing some of the most difficult medical circumstances. He was continually harassed by abortion opponents for much of his career - his clinic was burned down, he was shot by a health center protestor, and he was recently targeted for investigation only to be acquitted by a jury just a few months ago.
None of this stopped George Tiller from his commitment to providing women and their families with compassionate care that others were unwilling to offer. His death is an enormous loss for the patients who relied on him, his dedicated staff, the medical community and for women and their families across America.
That person forgot to include that they broke the law when they tortured prisoners cause it was the right thing to do in God's plan.
For decades the thug politicians in the Republican party have set the climate railing against abortion and another Doctor has died and they have blood once again on their hands.
Their rantings against abortion has consequences.
The hatred of these supposed Christians towards this man is despicable.
Also...Just a small typo on your post... his name is Dr. Tiller, Not Hiller.
[I already sent that email-Sitemonitor]
I profoundly reject this false "hate-love" dichotomy! It is BS and it is the main reason that people on the left and the right can't find some common ground!
Tankertodd's (the guy from redstate) comment for example has NOTHING to do with hatred! He talks about his convictions, his beliefs and trys to explain why in his opinion the murder of Dr.Tiller was the morally right thing to do. You may disagree with is argument and the logic behind them, but to pretend that he is simply driven by hatred is not only false, it is the behaviour of a covard, who is too afraid to engage this guy in a rational discussion!
I've rejected the idea that "they simply hate us" when the right wingers talked about the Iraqi resistance and I reject it here too! To declare someone or a group of people as being driven simply and exclusively by hatred means nothing less than declaring them mindless creatures who cannot possibly be reasoned with and therefore have to be fought and killed. In essence it means that you refuse to see them as human beings.
"It's called the American Dream. Because you have to be asleep to believe it!" George Carlin
I see them as human beings, mindless, thoughtless, uncaring about anyone that disagrees with their narrow world view, but human. They are no better than the Muslim extremists that they feel deserve to be tortured.
Are you kidding? His comments have nothing to do with hate, and everyone else are cowards afraid to engage someone in rational discussion?
Let's just set aside the idea of hate - although I'm fairly certain the term "hate" applies to his comments.
But how do you propose having a rational discussion with this man? He's laid out, point by point, the reasons why he thinks it was perfectly reasonable and morally right to walk into a man's church and shoot him during services.
A quote from Tankertodd: "I can't escape the conclusion that killing Tiller was the right thing to do. I am unconfortable with this conclusion because it is dangerous..."
You may find this statement despicable, cruel, absurd, etc... but can you honestly say that it is fueled by hatred?
As to how I propose to have a rational discussion with him, you've said it yourself: He has laid out his reasons POINT BY POINT! And that leaves two possibilities. Either his points are valid in which case he would be right and his opinion would be justified. OR the logic behind his points (or some of his points) is flawed and then you can point out those flaws in his logic.
It is of course another question if he is willing to engage in a reasonable discussion and to accept a good counter argument, even if it is inconvenient for him to do so. But to simply assume that a reasonable discussion with him (and others like him) isn't possible because he is "driven by hatred" is a fatal mistake, because it ends any discussion before it even began!
"It's called the American Dream. Because you have to be asleep to believe it!" George Carlin
Yes.
Hatred does not require emotion. The worst haters have ice in their veins. They are sociopaths. Sometimes they were just following orders. Sometimes they were sticking to regulations. Sometimes they were just following a logical chain of reason to its obvious conclusion.
It's hatred distilled to its icy cold essence.
And trying to "reason" with it is indeed usually fruitless. It must be contained and controlled and defeated.
To credit it with reason is to play on its field. Our game is empathy and humanity, and that's what is missing from this guy's "arguments" and "reasoning."
It's like the Holocaust denial pathology or like arguing with a Scientologist. These are people locked in a self- justifying chain of "reasoning" that works very hard to keep emotion tamped down.... clinging to the form of rationality even as it throws both humanity and rationality overboard and expresses the cruelest hatred of all.
You've said that "Hatred does not require emotion".
But that is simply false. To quote the definition of "hatred" from Princeton Universities wordnet: "hate: the emotion of intense dislike; a feeling of dislike so strong that it demands action"
Hate itself IS an emotion! So any statement that is not based on emotions, whether rational or irrational in nature, can therefore not be fueled by hatred.
On your other points:
I think you are looking at the wrong issue. I don't think that you can convince a guy like Tankertodd that abortion isn't morally wrong. Because that would require to convince him that human life does NOT start at conception, and I doubt that you could do that, even if he were willing to listen to your arguments.
But I believe that his argument about Dr.Tiller is a conclusion which is based on a faulty logic, even if he is "pro life"! And therefore those faults in his logic can be pointed out to him and he could chose to accept them and change his opinion on Dr. Tiller, WITHOUT having to change his believes about abortions.
(Disclaimer: I am "pro life" (sort of), in the sense that I think that human life begins with conception and that abortion are ethically wrong most of the time. But other than guys like Tanketodd, I think that there are some instances when an abortion is justified. I also don't base my believes on this matter on any religious faith. I'm also against criminalizing abortion, since in my opinion this would create more problems and suffering than it would prevent.)
"It's called the American Dream. Because you have to be asleep to believe it!" George Carlin
the word murder juxtaposed with morally right clinches it.
They're comparing this murder to Rosa Parks not giving up her seat to make room for a white passenger?
... truly is a sight to behold, ain't it?
considering the fact that this supposed act of "civil disobedience" against government allowance of legal abortions was to assassinate a private citizen and flee the scene. Yep, just like Rosa Parks.
let alone use her memory to try to justify cold blooded murder. And I DO blame whoever wrote this steaming pile of dung.
If this guy felt he was doing the right thing why did he flee the scene?
Red State needs to be investigated....by the FBI if it continues to promote this type of hatred, lawlessness and violence.
Red State needs to stop promoting violence and vigilante acts of violence.
I am in total agreement with the sentiments expressed by Kelli Conlin of NARAL/NY, as well. The seeds of hatred by the right wing and their allies in the fundamentalist churches and those clergymen who also do not let up, are complicit in these acts of murder and Christian terrorism.
The Christian/Catholic Fundamentalists are also still very guilty in the Matthew Shephard murder, and all acts of hatred and violence done against gays, lesbians and transgendered Americans, and, these so-called "believers" have plenty of blood on their hands.
but this is exactly why the free marketplace of ideas is so crucial to a healthy, informed society - the more these hatemongering theocrats expose their special brand of insanity to the general public, the better.
however hateful or wrong.
if a bunch of retarded black guys can be arrested for even the thought of blowing up a synagogue, why arent these radicals being rounded up...shipped to gitmo and waterboarded?
and please dont tell me that the right isnt filled with jew haters
read through those comments...comparing tiller to hitler and abortions to the holocaust
HOW DARE THEY!!!!!!!
the members of redstate, and the mindset they represent, makes me ill
Randall Terry, the founder of anti-abortion group Operation Rescue who led protests against George Tiller's clinic in Wichita, Kansas in 1991, issued a statement about today's killing of the abortion doctor.
In his comments, Terry does not grieve for Tiller or denounce the murder but seems more concerned about President Obama's reaction and what it bodes for the pro-life movement.
[ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/31/rand... ]
Study the symptoms not the virus...
as I was finishing your comment.....'the pro-life movement.'
HAH! That's an oxymoron...in fact they're mostly all morons > these people who profess to be law-abiding, God-fearing creeps do violence and murder, with their words and their deeds, and they have the nerve to call themselves Christians!? Pro-Life? What about Dr. Tiller's life?!
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
Doctors aren't alive. Haven't you heard?
... right -- and women's and girls' lives don't matter either.
as much as a fetus. These people are not "pro-life" - they are pro-fetus. If they were pro-life they wouldn't condone murder such as Dr. Tiller's (which was really an assassination), or the death penalty, or sending young men and women to be killed in a war based on a lie! They are fucking nut job hypocrites!
From the Red State comment:
The reason we have a State is to prevent ALL vigilantism.
The State MUST have a monopoly on violence.
That is the fundamental reason for having a State - so that people don't take justice into their own hands. There's Hell To Pay when that happens.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
wrong on one thing "The State MUST have a monopoly on violence."
I reserve the right to commit violence to protect myself, my family and other innocents. If some criminal kicks in my door or mugs/rapes myself or my family or others I will react with violence, almost all if not all states allow this. And in states that don't I'd rather be tried by 12 than myself or another carried by 6.
'cepting don't count on no one coming in ta rape YOU. Lessing it's cheneyites.
There are quite a few unattractive women out there that get raped, why not a ugly guy?
And actually as soon as I read what I posted I pictured that exact response.
The law - AKA "The State" - has always recognized a right to self-defense. It's a whole separate animal.
Expect Bill O'Reilly to send his goons to ambush anyone writing about his involvement with the environment that made this terrorist hate crime possible and, indeed, probable. Expect Glenn Beck to defend his 9-12 "movement" anti-government, anti-tax, pro-militia, homophobic, "States Rights," anti-Choice Christian/Mormon soldiers as having nothing in common with the terrorist assassin.
Murder is wrong.
Women must have the right to choose.
I feel for the Doctor's family.
But what kind of person grows up and becomes an abortionist?
I'm sorry.
I wish the man were alive, but if he were a pediatrician
I would be more sorry. If he were a garbage man I would be more
sorry.
But people don't kill pediatricians and garbage men for their handiwork
do they.
I am not trolling. I bet a lot of people feel the same way.
"I can't think of a worse job to have."
Exactly. That's why it was so heroic of Dr. Tiller to do it.
Other people would have given up after his clinic had been blown up.
Some would have quit after being shot in BOTH ARMS and surviving.
Not Dr. Tiller.
He believed that women should have a service that was safe and professional, and he cared enough to risk HIS LIFE to do something that no one else wanted to do.
I hear you. I am conflicted here. Keep it coming. I am not
perfect. I try to empathize. 30 years of Catholicism is a mofo
to shake. It's harder to accept abortion, which I do, than to
quit believing in God.
This women was born into a Catholic family and though she doesn't claim 30 years, as you have, you maybe able to relate to her story a little? You've probably even heard of her?... great DVD-IMHO.
Julia Sweeney: "Letting Go of God"
→ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtIyx687ytk
It's only as hard as you believe it is... your in charge
Study the symptoms not the virus...
abortion is NEVER needed for medical and ethically justified reasons, then that's one thing.
But if you are asking "what kind of person" learns to do abortions, the answer is someone who wants to do the ethically and morally right thing in those circumstances where abortion is the right thing to do... and I hope you'd agree that those circumstances do exist.
Now, how often that is the case is another matter, as Obama has argued. But having people throughout the US who are capable of performing safe abortions when those abortions are the right thing to do requires training people in the medical technique of abortion.
The phrase "an abortionist" suggests that people do that exclusively... I don't know... maybe.. but maybe they do that because so few people are willing to take on the heavy work of providing a morally and ethically justifiable service when it is needed.
Anyway, he's a hero for being available to do the right thing when abortion is the right thing.
When he graduated, he was too become a dermatologist. Though he decided to take over his families medical practice.?
I find it odd that your categorizing life's worth as it's related to occupations. :-/
Amended: "As he spoke in a small gathering in San Francisco several years ago, after finishing medical school he was to be off to Beverley Hills where he would work in dermatology"
→ → → http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelle-kraus/...
Study the symptoms not the virus...
this sounds like you are advocating murder for physicians (ob/gyn's). this is beyond the scope of your posting rights here, given your ability to judge, delimit the legal actions of others, you probably know this.
No NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!
Read the first three lines again!!!
backhanded intro does not diminish the relative worthlessness you put on the value of this physician's occupation (ob/gyn, the legal services he provided and the relative merit of his murder as compared to other occupations. you are responsible for taking this nuanced excusing of murder imo
btw MLK died defending garbage workers.
Toiboi,
I am responsible for what I say. Read further down. I am
saying what I think. It sucks. I can't help it.
And yes what you do for a living counts. Lawyers, IRS
Agents, repo men, come to mind.I pass a
clinic everyday as I go to work. The flip off the pro
lifers everyday. I honk like I support them, they wave and
smile, they see my outstretched middle finger and go back to
praying. But like I say further down the thread, if someone
said I had to gperform an abortion, I would kill myself
first.
I'm am obviously pro-choice but WHY would you "flip off the pro-lifers"? Don't they have any right to an opinion? I sincerely disigree with their policies but most of them aren't pro-murder like the ones that commit these kinds of heinious crimes. Instead of "flipping them off" maybe try stopping and talking? Unless of course they're the same assholes who believe in this murder as well as torture and pre-emptive invasions. In that case I'm with you 100%!!!
FTR you can add an awful lot of respectable jobs that people view as bad too. Migrant workers, dairy farm workers, food service workers, maintainance workers, sainatation workers, etc. You know> the people that make the world go 'round? But yeah the examples you pointed too are worse....
>> But what kind of person grows up and becomes and abortionist?
Well, perhaps someone who feels like you do that women have a right to choose, and that someone must step up to the plate and give them the ability to act on that choice. A "choice" that is unobtainable isn't really a choice, is it?
I know. I have never talked about this to anyone. The uber
socialist, Chomskyite, atheist "Leadership" has issues with
abortion, not with a woman's right to choose which I support, but
with the act itself. Oh if this country could be KNEE DEEP in
contraceptives.
I know it's a conflict.
I know it has to be done and it has to be readily available for
ALL women.
It is easy to say it and mean it, which I do, but if someone told
me I had to give a woman an abortion I would kill myself first.
tone in rationalizing the physician's murder seems in stark contrast for someone who values the life of the unborn in someone else's body. and yet not.
Please quit saying I am rationalizing the murder.
That is not my intent and you know it.
Abortion disgusts me, it so nasty. You are just being a
dick now. Jerking a fetus out a woman is not the same as
taking out the trash. As necessary as it may be it is nasty
beyond my ability to express.
The doctor was murdered!!
His life was valuable. No more or no less than anyone else.
His life's work is a different story.
your opinion of his life's work. your opinion of abortion. you cannot speak to the importance of late term abortions, only to your feelings/values, deeply held as they appear to be. letting this emotion transit over to the man's work or the help he provided to his patients and saying he falls into a lesser category is helpful to you but not to those who want a civil society that rejects violence against doctors, nurses, lawyers and judges who are providing services that are legal altho controversial (or repulsive) to some.
Because the truth is, if you had to make half the decisions doctors make in order to save their patient's lives, you wouldn't be able to.
The truth is, despite all the moral posturing, fetuses have to be aborted to save a woman's life.
If the woman dies, the fetus dies as well. What's the use of that?
You got it. Like any human I am judgmental. If a mother
was gonna die because of her pregnancy I could do it. If it
was a knocked up teenager I could not. Imperfect,
contradictory, judgmental, sexist, say whatever you want.
I have been posting on this site for 4 years now, under a
few different names. I feel a part of this community.
I support this community with money. I love it!!
I had something to say that I can't discuss with my retard
co workers or my uber Catholic family so I said how I felt
here.
But doctors who perform late term abortions don't do so for the convenience of the woman. Late term abortions are only done when the woman's life is at stake, or when the fetus is not viable. No teenager, 8 months pregnant, can just walk into a Dr. Tiller's office and demand that the fetus be "jerked out" like taking out the trash.
You DON'T have the right to kill someone else.
I never said they did, you are again not reading what I am
writing.
You posted "You DON'T have the right to kill someone else." So I assume your against abortion?
but would you define for me your definition of "someone"?
human being, 2 cells to whatever. And I am pro-life but I can understand and sympathize with some abortions. For the mothers life, but if its 3rd trimester medical technology can save the baby a decent percent of the time with a c-section, or if the baby is going to suffer or not live very long, yes I agree with assisted suicide or euthanasia.
Well, then, you have no issue with the late-term abortions performed by Dr. Tiller. In Kansas, late term abortions can only be performed for the very reasons you state, and two doctors must attest that one of those reasons exist.
Perhaps a doctor who lived through the days when abortions weren't legal.
Perhaps a doctor who saw the damage getting a back-alley abortion causes to the insides of women.
You're right that it's not the more desirable job in the world. But that's not the point. It's probably neither safe nor savory to be a doctor helping AIDS-infected children in war-torn Africa. But some people decide to do that because it helps people.
Certainly he's not doing it for the thrill of terminating pregnancies. Use your head.
n/c
She's 89 and you will never find a more staunch supporter of abortion than she is. She remembers the horrors of family members that tried to give themselves abortions and she has helped a few girls that were "in trouble" as she put it. She never told me how she did it, but no one died or bled to death as result of her help. Timjoebillybob and Leadership, as my grandmother helped certain family members who had been impregnated as a result of rape/incest, what would you suggest?
Two of my maternal aunts had backstreet abortions. One could never have children, the other damn near bled to death.
I felt sick at what happened to Dr Tiller because he had one of the hardest jobs one can imagine. An abortion is a difficult descision at any stage of pregnancy, and I can't imagine the emotional turmoil a woman goes through when she finds out her 28+ fetus has to be aborted because either it will kill her or it will die in the womb or shortly after birth.
Tim, you have no idea of what you are talking about. First of all, a doctor cannot euthanise the fetus because once it is born, he/she has a duty of care to save its life. Secondly, there is no medical technology to save the fetuses'lives at any stage of pregnancy, c-section or not Thirdly, a woman cannot have a c-section if the fetus has died in the womb.
First when I mentioned euthanasia, it was about unborn children with defects that will cause suffering and soon death if they continued to term and were born. Sounds like euthanasia to me. Just because it was done by abortion does not make it any less so.
Second I seem to remember something about pre-natal surgery, and giving medications. And I remember a c-section saving the life of my daughter and my wife. Or are you talking about there being no technology to stop the mother?
Thirdly Are you referring to a child that was miscarried? Or died as a result of a abortion? What I was talking about when I mentioned c-sections, was using that to remove the child instead of a abortion in late term pregnancies.
You are mixing up all types of shit.
Firstly, there are no such things as unborn children. The 6 year old at my feet right now, playing on his Nintendo DS and watching SpongeBob is a child.
The 33 week old fetus I am currently carrying is a fetus. Sometime in July, when he is born, he will become a child. I said this last night, if some evil fucker murdered my 6 year old, I'd be homicidal then suicidal. God forbid my pregnancy end now, I'd be very devastated, but not the same as I'd feel about my little boy.
A doctor cannot perform a C-Section and then euthanize the child. It is unethical and illegal. Was Dr Kevorkian a fairy-tale? He was prosecuted for killing people who wanted to die. A late-term abortion is less risky than a C-Section for a whole lot of reasons. Jesus, they don't give C-Sections for stillbirths.
Obviously, your wife and daughter were in distress which is not the same as having ancephally or being born with a brainstem. Fetal surgery is rare, very rare and a whole lot of doctors don't like to do it.
There is no technology to save a fetus with no skulls, brains, mouths or noses, or any other of the horrible conditions that can happen. I'd rather doctors concentrate on saving viable rather than non viable lives, and I live in a country with universal health care.
I am talking about stillbirths, not miscarriages and certainly nothing like "died as the result of an abortion" whatever the hell that means.
You are mixing up all types of shit.
Firstly, there are no such things as unborn children. The 6 year old at my feet right now, playing on his Nintendo DS and watching SpongeBob is a child.
The 33 week old fetus I am currently carrying is a fetus. Sometime in July, when he is born, he will become a child. I said this last night, if some evil fucker murdered my 6 year old, I'd be homicidal then suicidal. God forbid my pregnancy end now, I'd be very devastated, but not the same as I'd feel about my little boy.
A doctor cannot perform a C-Section and then euthanize the child. It is unethical and illegal. Was Dr Kevorkian a fairy-tale? He was prosecuted for killing people who wanted to die. A late-term abortion is less risky than a C-Section for a whole lot of reasons. Jesus, they don't give C-Sections for stillbirths.
Obviously, your wife and daughter were in distress which is not the same as having ancephally or being born with a brainstem. Fetal surgery is rare, very rare and a whole lot of doctors don't like to do it.
There is no technology to save a fetus with no skulls, brains, mouths or noses, or any other of the horrible conditions that can happen. I'd rather doctors concentrate on saving viable rather than non viable lives, and I live in a country with universal health care.
I am talking about stillbirths, not miscarriages and certainly nothing like "died as the result of an abortion" whatever the hell that means.
A policeman
A bank teller
A soldier
A defense lawyer
A president
There are quite a few professions where people know they could face a gun one day. That doesn't mean they shouldn't do their jobs. Or that we should expect their murders.
What this doctor was doing was legal. And while there are plenty who would love to have you believe he was murdering babies, how many lives of women with complications from pregnancy did he save?
The person who killed him has no concern for the mother's life. If she dies and that child inside her dies with her, it's "Oh, well, that must be what God wanted."
if you consider 20% a lot. I'm sorry you felt the need to tell us how sorry you aren't.
Righteous and perfect? No way... but you don't see me trying to justify the cold blooded murder of another human being.
Killing someone... because they believe differently than you do... is wrong. Period. Getting keyboard "tough" with me personally isn't going to change that.
I didn't justify anything. You are not being honest. Read
what I write not what what you think I am writing.
I'm sorry I cussed you.
I was pissed.
Abortion is awful. This is why pro-choice people have been and are working to reduce the need for abortions. The way to do this is to provide thorough sex education to children and teens and to make contraceptives available to all who want them, boys and girls, women and men. You can help reduce the number of abortions by supporting these efforts.
He was a caring, concerned physician who was providing a specialized service for special women. Very few women would ever 'choose' to have a late term abortion - it is usually the option necessary when it has been determined that the fetus has some sort of major malformation, or because the woman's life/health are in danger.
I believe Dr. Tiller was a man of conscience and great courage. He had the skills to provide assistance to women in need and he put his own life in danger for many years in order to do just that.
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
A woman living on the East Coast traveled to the Midwest seeking medical help from Dr. Tiller.
Her unborn child had a breaking bone condition which meant the baby wouldn't survive
a C-section or natural delivery and would put her life in danger.
Dr. Tiller saved her life.
Noted: Several postings on the net this morning have stated that the murder of
Dr. Tiller has not even been mentioned on the Morning, Joe Show.
DISGUSTING!
But that was it.zip nada no mas. No comment from Shmoe except to say two words. "That's horrible". It happened in the first 20 minutes of the show. No one is addressing it.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
"Relieved" to read the Morning Joe Scumborough Show at least "mentioned"
Dr. Tiller's murder.
WHEN WILL MSNBC DROP THIS GARBAGE OF A SHOW?
Delusions of grandeur much? Last time I checked Pre-mediated Murder was a worse crime then shooting the garbage man on a whim. Your comment actually makes the shooter MORE guilty. Is that your intent? Then you'd better try a better "leadership" course next time.
Read all I wrote.
The fact that these...people are incapable of making a distinction between civil disobedience and shooting a man dead is just frightening.
Not surprising as logic isn't exactly their strong suit.
morals in general.
The comment from the Red State blog says 'now fewer lives will be taken'.
That statement is utterly false. In 1971, the year before Roe v Wade made abortion legal, there were just about the same amount of abortions performed illegally. By this logic, it would also be prudent to kill the 1.6 million women who have abortions in this country annually alone,... then every doctor performing the abortion, & all the health care workers along with it. You'd be executing the population of a large state by the time you were done.
Legislation is not going to make the problem go away. This is a social issue, & only a seriously disturbed individual would use killing as a solution.
There were more fatalities because the mothers were dying more often alongside their unborn.
n/c
If you really, truly believe that abortion is murder, and that the fetus is a human being just like you and me, then how can you not feel at least relieved that a "serial murderer" has been stopped.
The fact that so many in the right to life camp are expressing horror and outrage at Tiller's murder suggests to me that, once they get past the bumper sticker sloganeering, that many in the right to life movement really don't see the fetus as equal to a "human being" and that they really do see a difference between abortion and murder.
The commentor at Red State that the post is about said flat out he was all for killing the doctor.
I do see what you are saying in the rest of your comment. Just don't see who you're referring to in the first part.
I was referring to the commenter at RedState.
It's his logic that is sound. It's just that I don't believe in his basic assumptions that fetus = human being and abortion = murder, nor do I think that most right-to-lifers actually believe it.
If the doctor was engaging in murder, then the thing to do would be to get the police and or the FBI involved. And shouldn't the woman also be a arrested? She is after all an accessory to the crime. And that would mean that all women who have had abortions, all doctors who have performed abortions, and all the support staff at the doctor's clinic, from the receptionist who books the appointment to the nurses and lab techs who make the doctor's job possible, should also be arrested.
I asked a pro-lifer once, if there were a fire at a fertility clinic, and when you got inside there was one unconscious child and a small refrigerator containing 100 frozen embryos, which would you save if you could only save one? I've never met anyone who would save the refrigerator.
...as I have posted on this site many times and the murder of Dr. Tiller puts an exclamation on it.
Considering all the people over time that have been murdered in the name of god, religious organizations should be illegal.
How in "gods" name can anybody get on their knees and worship their god who let's things like this happen... and I don't buy the "free will" BS the church uses... the "all knowing god" should have known this before it happened.
outside of Noah's family, according to the tales. Kittens and puppies too, and baby dinosaurs. Seems a waste of effort to be wondering why a genocidal maniac isn't a bit more empathetic...
I give you a big standing 'O' for that!! LMAO.
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples, promising liberty and justice for all
it were not for the fact that Christianity like Islam and Judaism have histories drenched in enough blood to fill the ocean. They are intrinsically bloody, violent religions - each and every one of them - and for each of them violence is a way of salvation whether it is viscous anti choice Christofascists or Islamofascists or Judeofascists - they are all cut from the same demented piece of cloth - the cloth that proclaims their version of God grants them the authority to murder in that god's behalf.
The sooner we realize there are no gods the better off we'll be.
but i was pointing out the obvious stupidity of condoning murder and the consequences it would lead to for the people (and the rest of us) that advocate it. saying you can murder people you don't agree with opens the door for like minded people to kill them. i in no way would advocate this clearly self destructive attitude or the consequential behaviors we speak about today.
i don't care if we could all agree if someone was a murderer, we don't then murder them for that because it justifies the argument that if you have a good enough reason you can kill someone. the whole reason for violent crime laws is to say that that mentality is wrong.
I am against abortion. But we have to remember that God gave us a free will. No one has the right to take that away from anyone. It always concerns me when the Christian Right starts talking that the woman must carry the baby to term, but when it is born they then wash their hands of helping that woman. Where is the preaching of love. What is God's greatest commandment?
"Obey me or die."
A simple case of cold blooded, premeditated murder is used as a flash point to further divide us on an issue that has religious extremist BS smeared all over it. Throw the criminal in jail, have him face a jury of his peers, and then let him rot in jail for the rest of his rotten life. If others are involved then it's conspiracy to commit murder for them. Twenty five years to life sounds about right for them. Killing should have consequences. Inciting to commit crimes should, too. "Thou shalt not murder." Next.
Haven't heard a single "Cheney shouldn't face war crimes for his torturing to get false confession of a fake link between OBL and SH" from the MSM all day!
I'm seriously considering moving back to Europe (where I spent 4 yrs. way back in the early 80's, and married a spouse from "god forbid"- Frayance!!). Sorry- should I appear 'elitist' to any readers here, but WTF, man!- gimme a break- what insanity pervades this ****ry's mentality enough to distort such common-sense arguments into a case for genocide for a certain class of physicians!! Real perversion, as far as you ask me, on the part of general "Mehrkin" cultcher....
Information.Please writes, "what insanity pervades this ****ry's mentality..."
I assume that the four asterisks represent a word that starts with "c" and rhymes with "bunt"? I don't argue that our country is somewhat insane, but I don't think you should use an offensive word for a female's genitals to describe it.
I don't blame you at all for wanting to go back to Europe, if you're tired of the endless struggle here for human rights and justice, but you'll still be able to participate via the Internet (if the neo-cons don't destroy it somehow). Et les meilleurs voeux à vous et à votre chère épouse. (Thanks, Babelfish!)
terrorists are not vigilantes, they just think they are. just ask the taliban.
Republicani = Taliban.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
I think the murder of Dr.Tiller and I use that term loosely is tragic and should be condemned. I thought Tiller was a bottom feeding slime ball exploiting women. I do not however think he should have been killed for it. The murderer that assassinated him is just that a murderer nothing more nothing less and should pay for his crime. Is red state to blame for comments left on their site? I am not really sure. I saw comments on this site a hour or two ago applauding his murder and they have since been removed. Does that make C&L liable for those comments? One thing to remember “his commitment to providing women and their families with compassionate care” included him making a shit load of money from it and it was alleged that he underestimated the fetal age and viability of unborn children in order to comply with Kansas law and used second opinions from a doctor who was essentially an employee of his, not independent as state law requires in order to get around the law.
You keep us posted on your assumptions- and their verifiable follow-ups....
As long as we are labeling people let's get it right. The killer is a cold blooded terrorist.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
It's murder plain and simple. What makes you feel that one man killing another because they disagree about morality has to be an act of terrorism?
Tiller was one of three doctors that did what they did when they did it. There were no others because they were constantly harassed, threatened, bombed, and killed. That doesn't sound like terrorism to you?
Robby supports domestic terrorism when it suits him?
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
The murder of Dr. Tiller isn't just one man killing another because they disagree about morality.
Choosing to assassinate someone publicly, in church on Sunday morning, no less, is an act designed to make a political point, not just a matter of personal disagreement.
And that, by definition, is terrorism.
nothing exploits a woman more than saving her life. Take your idiotic propaganda elsewhere. Red State will gobble it up and spew it out even faster than you can.
n/t
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
"used second opinions from a doctor who was essentially an employee of his, not independent as state law requires in order to get around the law"
Was the Man (Dr.Tiller) found guilty or not guilty by a court of law... Be honest now, it's much more admirable then you intellectual dishonesty.
PS. I understand you may get your laws from a different author... I'm talking about US Law.
Study the symptoms not the virus...
He was acquitted. So was O.J Simpson.
...political points. That DA has since been chased out of the county by the citizens who saw through his cynical ploys.
On edit: Here's the C&L article on that DA, from 11/07.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Translation = He is no longer the DA in that county. Do you have proof that is why?
Technically, Kline was AG, not DA, when he began his witch hunt, but whatever.
Last time I checked, no one is required to explain why they vote they way they do, but since I live in Kansas, I might have seen a little more of the politics here than some.
Kline is a politician that has spent his entire career pandering to the extreme right-wing of the Republican base, in a state known for its conservative views. He was trounced in elections in one of the more moderate areas of the state.
He managed to win a state-wide election to AG with the help of western Kansas (much more conservative than the urban areas in eastern Kansas), and STILL couldn't hang on to the office, beaten again by a more moderate candidate. A moderate candidate, it should be noted, that ran in part on a platform of what amounted to "I'm not Kline", and that he was not going to pursue the kind of social agenda that Kline had become famous for.
So, think maybe it's safe to assume that Kline's right-wing views might have had a little something to do with his being tossed out on his ear?
and your answer is more then I could have wished for, as it emphasizes my afformentioned comment and or claim.
Study the symptoms not the virus...
So are you saying that it is not true that it was alleged? I never said he was convicted did I?
for your time. I wish you well...
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Allegation.
See how easy that is. Now if I was a DA in your neck of the woods, I might get a subpoena so that you would have to turn over every little finigling document you have- every phone bill, every letter you have written and received, every snapshot you took in your life- so I could go over it with a fine-toothed comb. And I would make sure to call my friends at the Daily Chronicle & Fishwrap to let them know that I'm going to get you.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Thing is Andy I would have to bet you are only saying that to make a point where as I think the doctor was guility of the allegations and paid his way out of it.
On what evidence?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
I know it may seem like a novel idea but the very wealthy in this country can literally get away with murder buy buying their way out I don't really think this is a secret of any kind Andy.
a lot of wealthy people in the Wichita area. I'm sure there are quite a few that viewed Dr. Tiller in the same way you do, and could have paid a DA to pull crappy evidence out of combing through years of office files.
Man, he must be REALLY good. He bought off not only the prosecutor and the judge, but all the jurors, too?
In Fred Phelps area of Kansas???
It's more likely, knowing what that area of the country is like, because I have relatives there and have lived there myself, that Dr. Tiller was being harrassed by someone trying to make a point, or to score points.
From what I know of the case, it is likely that the local authorities would have closed Dr. Tiller down a long time ago.
You can think the doctor is guilty all you want. A court of law said that he wasn't. In that area of the country...in that area of Kansas, it is not likely that they would have rode the DA out of town if he had not done something that offended their sensibilities more that having a late term abortion provider in their midst did.
that a clown like Robby who apparently does not understand that helping women exercise their constitutional right to privately decide to have an abortion is neither slimy nor exploitative, also doesn't seem to grasp a basic tenet of criminal due process: we are all innocent until proven guilty.
You make me out to be some big time right to life nut when that is not true. I find it impossible for me to consider myself pro-life. I think you have to reserve that right in the case that a child be born to a life of horrible suffering but that is the dividing line for me. Late term abortions where the un born child is old enough to cry if not for the amitotic fluid and a little tissue between it and the outside world is nothing short of murder. Especially when it happens for no other reason than he or she is unwanted or not planned for. As far as his being guilty the courts decided that. I was just stating my opinion.
if state legislatures have created an exception, for instance, to save the life of the mother. If you choose to still call it murder, that's your personal morality, but it is not legal murder. Plus, late term abortions are not performed because of an unwanted pregnancy. That's just ridiculous. These are doctors, for god's sake, have some respect for them as professionals and as human beings. Or at least have some actual evidence to back up such an assumption.
So you disagree with the majority of liberals that the death penalty isn't murder?
but I certainly wouldn't call the doctors and other officials who choose to assist in conducting state executions "murderers." That's the distinction.
And I certainly wouldn't exploit the tragedy of such a person be gunned down in cold blood due solely to his or her vocation as an opportunity to advocate my personal morality.
I have been reading all of Robbys comments and he is ever so slowly pulling his conservative pen out of his anus. He held off for a good while , I must give him credit for that. His idea that late term abortions could be performed on a whim is an uneducated moronism that truly belongs on Red State and not on a blog that values all human life. You people are against abortion and also against contreception( Jim Demint). Hell! you must figure all unaborted fetuses will grow up to be moron right -wingers. I submit that you are the product of a partial -abortion .. your brains were thrown out with the placenta
to present it like this... "As far as his being guilty the courts decided that."
Instead of what I would say, is a more honest and proper way at minimum ... "As far as his being guilty the courts decided that"... Ya left off 3 words HE WAS NOT!
Study the symptoms not the virus...
So you are blaming him for his own death based on allegations?
"I saw comments on this site a hour or two ago applauding his murder and they have since been removed. Does that make C&L liable for those comments?"
Uh if they were taken down, doesn't that mean the site doesn't support that kind of post?
Are you stoned, or just stupid?
me-oww!
No for the last time I am not blaming him for his murder.
A. He was murdered and it is a shame and should have never happened.
B. I thought he was a bad guy
you see two different things. Get it? As far as the redstate issue goes I was under the impression that the comments there had also been removed. Have they not?
point is, that commenter uses shit they back on their site as a good reason to kill the guy.
The people who posted the same shit here just signed up to post that shit here. Click on their names and see when they joined, then when they made their first comment. They aren't regular commenters.
me-oww!
Agreed I thought they must just have an agenda here. so! The way I see it is that for example a lot of threads on C&L go pretty heavy on the corporate types and big business. So when some enviro-fool or I guess I should call them in all fairness environmentally motivated terrorist burns down a entire sub division of million dollar homes after spending hours reading and posting to blogs because he or she was lashing out against the oligarchs or neocons . Should C&L be liable or any other blog he visited?
Read the site's commenting policy. Any comments that advocate violence are looked upon as inadmissable. This site doesn't advocate violence and deletes those comments that do, as soon as the monitors see them.
You should have been around here the day Tim Russert died. Hundreds of comments, hundreds of deletions.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
That is not what Kitty said she said "that commenter uses shit they back on their site as a good reason to kill the guy" and I said I thought that his comments had been removed from there. In my example I said the enviro fool used shit that C&L backed as an excuse to burn houses. I don't think either site should be liable as long as they remove the comments. I am not even sure if they should be liable if they leave them up as long as they don't endorse them.
can one be so cognitively dissonant as to announce in one breath that he finds it dubious to describe the cold-blooded shooting of Dr. Tiller as "murder", while in the next he wants to hold a blog responsible for millions of dollars of property destruction because the arsonist spent hours reading criticisms of the ruling class?
That is not what I said. I said I did not think they should be held liable. I think you have misunderstood me.
but you still having trouble describing what happened to Tiller as murder?
I have only commented that exact thing like twelve times here tonight. I even said is was an assassination
"I think the murder of Dr.Tiller and I use that term loosely"
I was talking about the term "Doctor".
it's called a parenthetical. that whole sentence was about murder but your reader is supposed to think "term" refers to the professional title of Tiller? I guess miss_kitty is right.
it is because you are inarticulate.
me-oww!
I can't really deny that. I dropped out of school in the eight grade after my folks split up. I am not perfect. I have went from there to being a sucessful business owner and father of five although I lost my youngest boy in 2007. You can fault me for being inarticulate but I am pretty proud of myself sometimes.
judging a law abiding citizen being gunned down at church as somehow deserving because he performed abortions.
Not you’re just hashing words. I never said anything about him deserving it. Nobody deserves to be murdered. I thought it a horrendous crime that he be murdered because of his profession. Law abiding was up for debate in my book though.
What law was Tiller violating?
book... I believe? :D
Study the symptoms not the virus...
What do you "believe" truth critic? you have been on me all night. So what's your stance on this issue? Do you have an opinion about the good doctor, abortion, connection of internet blogs with crimes and manipulation of the second opinion rule?
He was acquitted of that second opinion rule violation.
Apparently the talibaptists of Kansas were attempted to litigate him into bankrupty fo further their cause.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
C&L or the authors liable, if someone kills O'reilly, Beck, Limbaugh etc? I guarantee if you go back through the pages that you can find people stating that they should be stopped by any means, or that they wouldn't be sorry if they died etc.
No I don't think they should be liable but you make a very good point.
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