Donaldson To Will: Teabaggers Aren't Mad About Taxes, They Just Don't Like Obama
By Susie Madrak Sunday Apr 19, 2009 2:00pm
Heh. Sam Donaldson really smacks down the ever-unctuous (and historically inaccurate) George Will on This Week's roundtable discussion about the teabaggers:
WILL: What this was about, as was the original Boston Tea Party - which was barely about taxes but about Parliament's role in their lives, was a view that we're now in something called the "third wave" of government. You had the expansion of the New Deal, you had the expansion of the Great Society to complete the New Deal, what those people who rallied there were saying this is something different, this third wave is to erase the distinction between the public and private sectors, and that frightens them.
DONALDSON: Oh, they weren't saying that, George. What they were saying is, we don't like Obama. And this is a proxy way to say that. Because it's true, he's going to lower taxes on 95% of the American public, and the rest are going to have higher taxes. You were quite correct, it's not about the level of taxes. Those rallies were mainly, it seems to me, organized to say, "We don't like Obama" across the board.
Peggy Noonan, believe it or not, is the one who more accurately nails the mood as anti-ruling class. Unfortunately, Fox News- and talk-radio voters are invariably under-informed as to the root causes of our economic woes.
Notice that when it comes to conservatives, they always consistently attack the legitimacy of any Democrat who wins the White House. So no Democrat is ever really the President, and should be challenged at every turn! There, wasn't that easy?
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Enough of this libertarian big government is the enemy nonsense. What's your solution to the problem? You sound like George Will.
The original Boston Tea Party was all about taxation without representation, not just taxation
Because the government is the people. If government fails it means the people fail. We get as good a government as we elect. Its time to quit with the bullshit excuses and get good government.
Less than half the population is ignorant enough to take part in elections.
the bigger our government gets, the worse it gets.
expanded government more than anyone before him. I'm glad you were marching in the streets protesting that, though.
than ANY president in history.
And where were these SAME PEOPLE?
Were they protesting? No. They were calling critics of Bush's policies "unpatriotic" and "traitors."
Two great examples. No government in healthcare and people can't afford it. No government in the financial industries and people get raked.
Uh, and where is this health care where no government is involved? Where is this financial industry where no government is involved?
Financial industry is controlled by an SRO, not the government. Health Care is run by money and Lobbyist. I wasn't talking Medicare which is run by the government and one of the most well run successful forms of health care there is.
Lobbyists to whom? The government.
Oh yeah, Medicare is so successful. (link)
Medicare spends ten percent on overhead. Health care insurance companies spend over fifty percent on overhead. So medicare is more efficently run these private health care companies and is far more cheaper for the consumers.
If people had any idea they would all want to be on medicare and medicare would be the only company in town since nobody could compete with them.
Can people sign up for this glorious Medicare? What? they can't? Why not?
Because all working people pay for Medicare, only available to elderly and a few others. If everyone were on it, the overhead would skyrocket and the costs to the taxpayers (sorry, consumers) would also skyrocket.
Currently, "private" insurance is such a scam because of the regulations (usually on the state level) that keep the big boys in power and squeeze out any upstarts.
Private insurance, in healthcare or anywhere else, is such a scam because insurance companies are immune from anti-trust laws.
Insurance companies have the limited government you espouse. And they use it to squeeeze us all.
Unless your getting paid under the table check your pay stub. We pay into Medicare so later on in life when we are no longer employed and can't afford the riches like the CEO's we have medicare. Oh yeah, and the needy. As an American I want my less fortunate neighbor who by no fault of their own live a long and healthy life.
were allowed to profit in the 1990's..it began before that! Insurance Co should be regulated back to be preformance based and for the patient...They accept cash to their door step every day but have no accountibilty and are 'self governing'! AIG denies 50% of their large claims or fights them...have no incentive for 'good health'!
Shameless!
and Social Security are the two most popular programs in the US government. In fact, more popular than the GOP is unpopular, which is saying alot.
If, for once, you like to argue facts go look at the link you provided and try to understand (I know, I know, it's asking alot) why the single shortfalling mentioned in the link is true. Could it be that older people get sick more often, could it be that Medicare inadequately covers those in post-operative care, or that hospitals are so overburdened that they release patients before they should?
If you would try to apply some reason (there I go again) why Medicare is not perfect perhaps you be in a better position to argue your point, but. alas...
By the way the link you cite nowhere says that Medicare is not successful, as you seem to imply, but that there is room for improvement. Put another way, we should look for ways to improve Medicare, not abolish it.
To nitpick one aspect of Medicare that may be imperfect to advocate for it's abolition is, to say the least, counterintuitive, not to mention disengenuous.
Got parents or grandparents? Who is providing their health care?
Come his turn when he hits 70 purely out of principle he will refuse these "entitlement" programs. He'll get his first Social Security check and return it. He'll get his application to enroll in Medicare and burn it. Just like the Governor from the great state of Texas decries Washington's taxation but is screaming for more FEMA funds.
... the power goes to the people by default. In our system that power goes straight to multi-national multi-billion dollar organization.
My problem with the small government argument is that what its proponents usually mean is fewer environmental inspectors, fewer food inspectors, fewer OSHA inspectors, and, most importantly, fewer regulations.
How about let's have fewer wars and fewer bailouts first.
But first we need a government strong enough to stand against the military/industrial complex and Big Finance.
:)
Because that's what small government means. No military industrial complex. No Big Finance in bed with the government. No Big Oil in bed with the government. No big anything in bed with the big government.
How is it a Republican bill?
Remember who opposed it the most vehemently?
House Republicans. They killed it.
Then the Senate added more pork to it, twisted arms, threatened, and cajoled, and they got a few more votes to push it over the top.
It's a Republican bill because that evil Nancy Pelosi didn't write it. It was the Bush administration...duh. So that's the new line? Even when it's from a Republican call it a Democratic? That one is not gonna work.
Sure, Paulson and his cronies wrote that thing. Oh yeah, he's such a staunch republican. No, he's a corporate fascist that weaseled his way into the government. Just like his buddy Geithner. Yeah, Geithner is a staunch democrat.
If you want to call that bill anything, it was a banker's bill.
just wondering...
Who appointed his bestest buddy Geithner?
Why does everything have to be D and R with some people?
Can't you see it's all the same fucking people?
...or are we not on that anymore? If you're going to jump around at least warn us.
How do you know he didn't write any part of it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Geithner
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9...
Just want to make sure where we're headed here.
It's starting to work isn't it. I guess that blows your big government bullshit out of the water. Maybe if "big" government had more control over the financial industry to begin with instead of trusting an SRO run by the likes of a Paulson, Bernanke and Geithner we wouldn't need the TARP or Obama's big budget would we now.
So now TARP works?
It worked? Like the surge?
We never needed the TARP. There were companies out there that didn't leverage themselves to death.
There were a lot of good banks too. They got nailed by TARP. Good banks that were doing fine are now under the thumb of the new Treasury Czar (because that's what the TARP transformed the Treasury Secretary into.)
Talk about a wild pitch.
Man we're going off the deep end with this obsession with wingnutia.
problem not the solution. Their freaking "actors" putting on a show.
Their job is to steer the dialogue into these narrow partisan dialectics.
getting something important done by yapping on a TV set once a week or whenever the agent can get the gig booked.
What Will doesn't seem to realize is that while a lot of the teabaggers are idiot Republicans who will vote Republican no matter what they do, a large portion of them, including the more politically active people, hate the Republicans just as much as the Democrats. They aren't stupid and know that both parties are responsible for the waste fraud and abuse of the government.
live paycheck to paycheck and walk down the street as some faceless fodder?
So STFU and pay your goddam taxes...
nuttin personal...just sayin...
I'm sure Evet has no choice in whether he pays his taxes. If he doesn't the government will seize his property and/or put him in a cage.
So how much did you pay in taxes this year to the benevolent government? Why didn't you pay more? Greed is evil, woody. Don't be so greedy. The government needs that money. Can't you see that it's in debt? After all, they just want to do what's right. Right? Why not think of the public good instead of your own greedy wants? Why not pay double or triple what they want? Think of it as a donation to your favorite charity, because it is your favorite. Right? And this charity is awesome. It's filled with noble, self-sacrificing public servants. It's run by selfless politicians who run for office only out of the goodness of their hearts. It never violates our rights, despite having the power to do so. It wastes virtually no money at all because of graft or incompetence. And it generally makes all of us all-around better human beings.
So what are you waiting for? Double your tax bill and send in your check.
I happen to agree with Woody. Pay your damned taxes, get your services, and a portion will go to those need assistance. Figure out the proportion of your taxes that go to "those need(ing) assistance" is going to be about a fraction of one percent. More than half goes to our military machine. The rest goes to education, regulation...MUCH needed as we have learned these last 20+ years, fire/police protection and the like.
So your smart ass comment about paying double triple is just more right wing hype and illogical bull shit. Pay your fair share and STFU. Nobody is asking anyone to pay double or more. I love smart ass responses that have no ground in reality. Makes the right wing sooo proud!
Then you SHOULD pay more of your so-called "fair share." Obviously taxes are too low. Your "fair share" is much larger than they are asking for.
It sounds like you want there to be a trillion dollar military machine that we pay for through extortion.
Maybe you can earmark your donation to go just to that, unless you want it to go to "those needing assistance."
Then earmark it for that. Because the government will take care of these people better than anyone else. They are noble and beneficent.
Enough of this libertarian big government is the enemy nonsense. What's your solution other than to be a oppositionist like the teabaggers?
My problem is that I don't live in a free country.
My solution to that is to get the government, at all levels, off people's backs.
Nice try but your "answer" is not an implementable plan because you supply no specifics. If you want to get government off your back move to Somalia, where anarchy is the government. See how your libertartian ideals work in a lawless regime with no rules. At least you won't have the cold, dead presence of "government" to deal with.
You need this badly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh-ttsYcWb8&fe...
Libertarianism is a fraud that promises much but delivers little. It is based on a paranoid and unreasonable fear of government and the self centered idea of every man for himself. I don't have time to listen to such nonsense as America needs workable ideas to lift us up, not paranoid snake oil salesmen.
Anarchy is the solution is it! Wonderful.
not to suddenly jump into your discussion, but this is a very good point bmw.
people cannot be afraid of government. when they say the government is the problem, they don't realize they rely on that government everyday. without it we have anarchy...and nobody wants that (not even anarchists). i will agree that our government needs reform to be more efficient and have their priorities in the right place. but the whole point of government is to protect its citizens, and many cases that protection is against ourselves (i.e. violence, greed, extortion, etc.) In order to have that protection we need to give up some of our "freedoms" (freedom to be violent, be greedy, and to extort others for money).
if people only realized that they need to embrace government with a focus to fix it to work better, they will realize that this whole arguement that government is evil is really bullshit
We need government to be a force for the public good, not an oppressive force to squelch freedom and liberty. Libertarians forget the redemptive things government provides as you note but like the teabaggers, willingly make it the focal point of their paranoia and fear.
Ouch!
"get the Govt off the people's backs."
But what it disguises tickles me even more:
"So that there's nobody the people can turn to when I--wheyghey, et fils--wanna fuck with'em...
"you know, sell 'em cheap defective shit?
"dump crap in their water, poach wildlife or fish, poison their food, infect their children, shit like that."
Raht, bubba? Get the Govt out of the business of protecting peope from the likes of you?
project much?
You're right. I guess when the government strip searches your wife at the airport and hassles you for taking pictures of buildings and spies on your email, at least I know I can always turn to...
Why are all examples that your bringing up all comes back to laws enacted by Republicans? I totally agree with you. these Republican laws are way overboard. Lets have a protest and throw shit in the water against Republicans.
I think every community should just hold bake sales to raise money for roads, transportation, unemployment, homelessness... We can defend ourselves. I know a guy who lives two doors down that can build a fleet of fighter jets and get at least 15 people together to build an army for national defense. Get rid of them all and sell cakes.
You have plenty of alternatives. Oh wait, they all have governments. You're looking for a place without government interference. I guess there's always Somalia, you can be a pirate. And no you don't get to wear an eye patch.
they have almost no government, no taxes to speak of, and they sure do love them guns down there. I mean, it is libertarian paradise!
Too bad there are all those black people over there... otherwise, our libertarian friends would be there in a second.
Aaarrrgue with that. Eh Mateys.
until your boy Shrub stole the presidency in 2000, now we all have to live with the consequences of your stupidity.
My problem is that I don't live in a free country.
So move to one that is. And STFU already.
Sure, wheygey, just like Somalia........they have no government bothering them and look how well that's working out for them. Can you picture your future as a pirate?
Hulk, you and a few others here NEED this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh-ttsYcWb8&fe...
that worst arguments ever. comparing freedom to marry to economic necessities of public education and welfare programs is ludicrous.
Lay off with the nutty guy video. You've been sent this message by someone who cares very much about your sanity.
I'd venture to say my wife and I pay WAY more in taxes of all kinds than you ever will and we're damn glad to do it. Oh, wait you're probably one of those "6 figure salary, self-made, bootstrap" kinda guys that are really common on this kind of thread, huh?
Edit: this is directed at Waygone, not woody.
sorry to see that you enjoy doing the funding of government murder.
When you pay less taxes, you get more freedoms. That's what businesses do.
Under Shrub, businesses have never paid less taxes.
More "freedoms(sic)"?
Not so much.
all those "concerned" patriots seemed to have waited until George Bush left the White House to express their "discontent" en Masse.
But I am sure that is just a coincidence, right? Otherwise it would blow your "non-partisan" bullshit you are trying to peddle here...
And they have been tea bagging on the inside all during the Bush years, right?
whoever said america is a nation of whiners must have been talking about republicans
The people start to rise against the 'ruling class' just when their ruling avatars happen to be the Dims...
Nobody could ever have anticipated this...
The problem is the people on the right have no clue why they are upset. They throw worlds around like "socialism" and "fascism," but have little understanding of what they mean. They are just upset that a Democrat, a black one at that, has become President. They have no reason to hate him, but they do because most Republicans get their info from Fox News and no other source.
LOL. I thought it was the last Republican who wasn't really president. He was installed by the Supreme Court in 2000 and had to have a Republican secretary of state in Ohio to "carry" that state in 2004.
Exactly!! They don't like President Obama. They don't like losing. They don't like being LOSERS! But the fact is, TOUGH SHIT!! They are losers. Either get behind this country or get the f*ck out!
These red neck, right wing hate mongers are poisoning our society. They scare me more than the terrorist threat, and that is NO exageration. We are a nation where bigotry lives strong. We have the Nazi hate groups, but we also have the everyday mom and pop hate mongers as well. Immigrants? Hate 'em! Dark people? Hate 'em! Athiests? Hate 'em! Gays? Hate 'em! Anybody NOT like them.....HATE 'EM!!
We are not only a nation of morons, but we are a nation of bigots and racists. Swallow up America. You just saw a couple hundred thousand of them last Wednesday waiving their flags and pumping their dumb ass catching signs in the air. Racists and bigots. Welcome to hannity's america!
"America is a nation of morons, racists, and bigots that do nothing but hate and I hate them for not thinking like me! If they don't love this country (made up of morons and bigots) then they should GTFO!"
Enough of the bullshit and lies. We all know this but I think Donaldson was the first in the MSM to actually say it. 95% of those teabaggers at the rallies are taking home more pay than they were under Bush and 100% are taking home more than when Reagan was president. 0% of them actually understand Obama's budget. That's the bottom line. These people aren't protesting anything but the dislike and/or their frustration of a Democratic administration.
Get use to it people, it's called Democracy. People go to a ballot box and vote, whoever gets the most votes runs the country for their designated term. They tried their hardest to take out Clinton before his term was up and they're going to do the same thing with Obama. Fucking sore losers. Let me rephrase that, fucking losers.
as an MSMer, he nails them hard here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU67nrAlunE
Once again I must rephrase. Other than the likes of KO, Rachel and Schuster. Thanks for the reminder, credit where credit is due.
Ever note how the MSM always responds when confronted with their Establishment bias? Well, we're always accused of being the "liberal media" so we must be neutral if both sides are criticizing us.
Same here with taxes. Obama is letting the Bush tax cuts expire of their own accord and then only raising them an anemic 4 percent. The top tax bracket is still ten percentage points below where it was under Ronald Reagan. The windfall profits tax he promised? Nowhere to be seen. He has instituted a very regressive and steep tax on smokers as part of SCHIP, however. Raising capital gains rates? I think that's hiding out with the windfall profits tax.
The Obama tax scheme is exactly what Top 1% desire. Would they like even lower taxes? Of course. But with the public anger over the past two decades of class warfare and the current bailout of zillionaires they are well aware they could easily be facing an Eisenhower era top rate of 90%.
But Obama is an Establishment guy and he won't go there. So he gives us a lousy 4 percent increase on these crooks and can claim, because of a tiny, Establishment driven, over the top group of protesters, that he is "taking them on."
Kabuki theater anyone?
The problem with these "teabaggers" is (in part) that they are professional oppositionists and anarchists that only know what to be against, not for. Because they are so disconnected with the mainstream beliefs of America they are increasingly marginalized and irrelevent to our political discussion---a fact that these controlling authoritarians deeply fear. They have this simplistic black/white belief that they are absolutely right and anyone who opposes them is wrong. Dialogue with these cultlike political mutants is impossible as they have an implacable, paranoid belief that someone is out to get them and that an "enemy" must always be identified---in this case Obama. In reality, they are their own worst enemy.
Teabaggers intentionally corrupted the message of the Founding Fathers into their own in the belief that they were somehow "patriotic." Nothing could be farther from the truth as the Founding Fathers of our country had a vision of how they wanted to lift up America by throwing off the shackles of British tyranny and oppression. The modern day teabaggers have nothing redemptive to offer except their manipulative lies and ceaseless wailing about being powerless--a distinction they have certainly earned.
These people are little more than modern day Mc Carthyites who need to be purged from our political process. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
trying, as usual, to make right-wing bullshit smell like a rose.
"[W]hat those people who rallied there were saying this is something different, this third wave is to erase the distinction between the public and private sectors, and that frightens them..."
blah blah blah.......
No, George. Those tea baggers don't like an "uppity n*****" in the White House. THAT'S what they're pissed off about.
Donaldson was actually right for once.
And say they are racists.
WHY don't they like Obama? None of the "reasons" bear out. The only thing left is a level of racist hate so palpable, the more rational of us can't even fathom it.
Here's a Fox-type spin on tea-baggers: they want to disarm the Navy Seals.
there can only be two reasons the right "hates" Obama. One his colour or two, to create the great political reality tv shellgame. It can't be his spending, or policies, because there is very little difference between his policies and Bush's. Except, like Clinton, his admin won't torture, they'll render, and they won't officially invade, they'll send in predator drones. And they won't give tax cuts, they'll just give tax cuts. Oh and they'll cut military spending, by increasing military spending. Well, they'll cancell the odd program to make it look different. So why would the right not like him? He's their kinda guy!
These are all right wing mental midgets who are totally frustrated and at a loss as where to go or who to turn to now that the Repugs have just about destroyed their own party and are pretty much neutered , all they have is the clown show at Fox " news ". Donaldson is right , the only thing unifying them is that they don't like Obama ( no matter what he does or doesn't do ) . It is a real joy to observe these idiots , they are not happy campers these days .
hey do not believe they should have to pay equitably for the services they take for granted.
I'm waiting for wheyghey to go "galt."
B-bye...!
those 'services' are provided by a monopoly that is way overcharging.
Stefan Molyneux. If you want to create an interstate highway system or a continent spanning power grid you let people organize themselves into drum circles and it all magically appears. Voila!
I hate the misuse of my taxes by the government. But that is a fact of life with this or any other country. Hell, it's a fact of life with any huge organization or company, so quite f^%&! complaining and pay your taxes. And if you don't like the way the gov't spends your money give to your favorite charities. I put my money to good use and give 20/25% of my yearly profits to charities. It's deductable and this way the you have a say in where it is going. The rest I give to the gov't and pray some day it will be used wisley; bbbbbbbbbbaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
I'd love to. How do I go about getting the tax money back?
Good luck finding any country where you have a American standard of living without the "burden" of taxes. You must be psychotic.
Before the federal personal income tax, America had the highest standard of living in the world.
Does it still have that?
Damn Lincoln! Freeing the blacks and killing all those unicorns!
Are you actually saying that the standard of living in America was _better_ before 1913? Really? The level of unregulated industrial production was certainly helping the agricultural sector in those days, not to mention wimmen and chilluns, and just about any minority.
You must mean the highest standard of living for the Andrew Carnegie/John D. Rockefeller class of white folks, right?
And those damn child labor laws just got in the way.
than the average life expectancy was like 40% lower, it must have been from all the laughing...
giving us minimum wage, pensions, and a forty hour work week.
Because all I ever wanted is the US to revert into the Gilded Age, again.
*Is this era the new Gilded Age?
Who first imposed an income tax? A Republican!!!
Define "standard of living" if you want a genuine answer to that question, and if you're not just being a whiny prick.
which have higher standards of living all have higher personal income taxes. A conundrum wrapped in a mystery. If you're a libertarian that is.
If such a country tried to exist, the U.S. government would dream up an excuse to invade, and you know it.
in Shrub's stock market BWAHAHAHAHA.
Capital gains tax rate is 15%.
And the stock market did so well under Herr Shrub.
Did I mention you have no reasoning ability?
My oversight, so sorry.
Is it "your" taxes or the "governments" taxes?
That I pay for the common good of all Americans. It is not a perfect system, but perfection is not a human trait. You on the other hand, are little better than the GOP who have a Ferengi like obsession with profit and entitlement and think that you can have something for nothing.
But you don't PAY taxes.
They TAKE taxes.
And what's that about entitlement? Something for nothing?
You seem to live in paranoid and psychotic dream world where somehow, you can evade paying your fair share of taxes and not degrade services that actually benefit you. GWB the 1st has a perfect term for your economic model:
Voodoo economics.
There once was a time in this country where everyone's "fair share" of federal income taxes was ZERO.
That was the time in history of the Robber Barons who deliberately conspired to create business monopolies that were against the public interest.
Fortunately, the income tax was created to give these Commodore Vanderbilts a way to pay their fair share. You have a problem with that?
Oh so now I'm a Commodore Vanderbilt?
I feel pretty rich that I'm paying income taxes now.
And that was NOT the purpose of the income tax. That went hand in hand with the federal reserve act, which ultimately benefitted the fat cats.
... check out some history books. The progressive income tax went "hand in hand" with the Underwood-Simmons Tariff. Where do you find a connection to the Federal Reserve Act, and how can you dismiss a call for progressive income tax that went as far back as the 1870s?
You're asking Waygone to read and reason?
You must be a stranger around here, pardner ;-)
The purpose of the income tax originally was to fund a war. How ironic after the Bush years of war and income tax cuts to the top earners.
You could have used of that Librul edumacation.
is getting bludgeoned and he keeps getting back up for more!
SEVEN
EIGHT
NINE !!!
Stay down you fucking moron!
DING DING DING !!!
... from the poor schmucks who get pay checks. Those who don't have to file quarterlies and pay.
Of course, some of the poor schmucks getting paid by the hour are still willing to buy into Ron Paul libertarianism (of course it also happens to be the biggest wet dream of the Top 1% since conservatism).
with the spitting of hairs? You guys have all the answers. My theory about folks like you is that you heard some clever one sentence theory, it made sense to you because it was only one sentence long, and you hang on to it like a bulldog. It certainly must make you feel superior to all the rest of the citizenry who pay taxes when you are so clever that you don't. Or do you, and this is all an exercise in brave little BS? Use your real name, we'll tell the IRS where you are, and you can have a deep intellectual discussion about why you shouldn't have to pay taxes. I'll bring the popcorn.
spLitting hairs, but he may be spitting a few too.
I did mean splitting. However, I don't know what he does for recreation, so he may be spitting them, too.
You're good.
...quit paying taxes!
You are actually funding an out of control international entity of banks and corporations who have taken control of our govt.
for the good of humans worldwide stop funding the American imperialism...and say no to the IRS.
He's telling me how to legally stop paying taxes.
Not too much good advice, suffice it to say.
Bernie Goldberg, O'Falfel's butt-buddy. He's a master at it.
Or The Boeing Corp. they always get a tax refund.
who went to the local wingnut churchery and took a seminiar on how the government can't make you pay taxes. Funny...the government took them to court and now they pay taxes. Tilting at windmills is never a good idea. Never mess with folks who can do you more harm than you can do them and who have tons of lawyers on the payroll. You will lose, and you should.
If you don't want to pay taxes, stay off my streets, don't use my highways, and when your house catches fire, get a bucket. Don't send you kids to the school I pay for with local and federal tax money, not that you sound as if you do, and for heaven's sake, don't expect any protection if there is a war. You sound like my idiot ex-son-in-law. One of the reasons he's the ex is because of hare-brained foolishness like the stuff you are spouting.
YOUR streets? YOUR highways, fire department, schools, military? Show us the deed to YOUR property.
if you don't they are certainly far more mine, and all the people who do pay for them, than they are yours. I have rights to them by supporting them. If your aren't supporting them, then you have no right to use them or to dictate how to use them. So, I would say that you are stealing services in that case. But I suspect that you are paying taxes, but love these conversations because they make you feel as if you are really putting it to the old libs.
We pay taxes to get this shit. Without our tax money we wouldn't have no I-90, no Bellvue Fire Department, no Robert F Kennedy Middle School. Yes they are ours. We paid for them we built them and we use them. If you do not want to pay your taxes don't leech on the things our money has built or invested in.
Drive your car in a field of 3 foot high weeds to get to the community hospital that doesn't exist to treat your heart attack because no one pays taxes. When your house is on fire, run 300 yards to the stream to get buckets of water to put it out because we have no public works to put it out or publically paid employees to drive those big red trucks.
When Another hurricane or terrorist attack happens in your town, your city. Good luck without federal help.
I'm all for it. IF you want to benefit from the services provided by the government, pay taxes. If you don't wanna pay taxes, buy a farm and wittle yourself the equipment. John Deere gets tax breaks, can't go there.
Life is not a Steinbeck novel.
We really shouldn't have to repeat this. But some walls just won't stick to the crap being tossed out there. Local, state, federal taxes. Without'em we're nothing.Simple as that.
Perfection? Purity? Honesty? There's always going to be plenty of corruption and ill will to balance them out. But to be stupid enough to say "no tax" because some (even a lot of it) is misspent is beyond stupid.
You want a perfect world (One where what you 'earn' is all yours?My suggestion: Find yourself a little island and live on nuts and berries. Don't take any man-made materials with you, because at some point they have all been corrupted by the government (roads, and bridges for shipping the product, for ex. "pork" for financing industrial parks, etc.etc.
America. Pay taxes or leave it.
People like Waygone don't have any survival or practical skills. They bloviate bullshit for both fun and profit.
if have no obsession with profit and entitlement. If I have an obsession with anything it's stealing people's property and trying to justify it by calling it taxes to pay for what some thief decides is the "common good" of all "Americans". If you think that there is such a thing as an "American" or "Americans", then please tell me what an "American" is, what it does and how it does it.
So taxation is theft, huh? Well then try doing without the things your tax money provides like fire and police protection for starters. You'll need a nice big bucket and a water source in case your house catches on fire to replace the municipal services that you decided to cancel out so you could keep your nine pieces of silver stuffed in your mattress.
People like you haven't got a clue what to be for except your self centered interest.
Hey youse take dis for granted over heah. Try doin without our protection, huh? I mean, dis is a nice place. Sure wouldn't want anything bad to happen to it.
This is mafia extortion and it's no different than what the government does in the way of the income tax. If you don't hand it over, things get bad for you.
To protect the public against selfish anarchists like you that destroy what people of conscience and goodwill seek to build.
If you haven't got anything more redemptive to offer than than your bombthrower, antisocial rhetoric, move on.
I just want to keep the fruit of my labor.
I'm trying to point out to you that there is no need for a federal income tax to fund the federal government.
The federal government would just have to shrink by 35%. That's the same level of government we had in about 2000 or so. Well, since the spending has increased manifold in a few years, I'm not sure where the line is anymore.
But it wasn't long ago that the government was 35% smaller. The government can live with that.
... of the DOJ shrinks beyond even the pathetic state it's in now, how will you enjoy paying those "private" taxes?
I know I wasn't too crazy about paying a $3.00 per gallon tax to Exxon.
Tell us specifically how you intend to reduce the size of government 35% instead of saying that it was possible once.
An idea without an action plan is a hallucination---time for you to put up or shut up.
What's your plan, Wheyghey?
"I just want to keep the fruit of my labor."
Fine, build your own roads and hospitals. OR, let big corp do it and charge you what ever they want. Driving from Elm street to Main will cost you $1.20 in tolls.
The typical conservative argument. Shrink government. What part of it do you want to shrink? Specifically name some programs that you want to get rid of that would actually make a dent. Or is this just something Hannity told you to say.
Small government big religion.
BWAAHAHAHHAHAHBWAHAHHAHAHHA!!!!!
being paid for by that 35% you want to do without.
I'm glad you brought this up. If you didn't know, the mafia is in the business of providing goods and services to the public while taking a large profit. when the needed goods and services were protection, like in the 20's and 30's when the government didn't put police officers on the streets, they were there. when the banks won't loan money to needy people and businesses, they are there to provide loans today. their tactics are the problem (as they charge too much for their services) but their role is needed, especially when government won't step in. funny how after more money was put into police forces, the mafia stopped providing protection.
the point is, the mafia is doing what the government should be, because they are needed pillars of society. protection, building communities, providing services. but we have more accountability with our government then we do with the mafia. that is why it is better that the government takes over. that way their profits can be known and minimized, their corruption can be shown and stopped. both entities require monetary input, and both provide necessary services. taxes are an institution of this...and it works. taxes have built up america. taxes built our highways (interstates), feed our children (corn subsidies), and protect us from a variety of problems (wars, crime, biological problems, natural disasters). these are all needed pillars of society, and someone will have to pay for them. but its much better when its collective, as we all use roads, all have children and all need protection.
Yes there is governmental waste, It's on both sides of the aisle. No taxes no.....
Aaahhh fuck it. You just can't fix stupid.
Gotta love the delusional moniker,btw. We all waiting for your solution to fire and police protection, national defense, safeguards in the workplace, roads, bridges, etc.
Can't come up with a logical argument as to how to pay for them without taxes?
We'll anxiously await your answer.
And about "If I have an obsession with anything it's stealing people's property"? Paging Dr. Freud, paging Dr. Freud." Pure comedy gold.
Your lack of self-awareness is hilarious. Please go on.
That is supposedly what TEA means to the tea bagging movement. While this might sound like a fantastic slogan to people who don't live in reality, for those of us who do, this slogan is ridiculous. No one in America is taxed to the hilt. And, the taxes that people and corporations do pay provide services that we need like police, firefighters, roads, and other assorted services that we use on a daily basis. So, I'm really lost on the logic behind "Taxed Enough Already" because we've been starving the beast for the past 30 years by lowering taxes on not only individuals but also on corporations.
The thing that makes me want to pull out my hair is trying to have a conversation with a tea bagger. My extended family are all into this movement and somehow the facts with which I present them are always from the "wrong" source or not from the "real" side of things. Instead of actually debating the facts, we end up debating sources, and I end up vowing to just hit the delete button when I see an e-mail proselytizing the tea bagging movement--- I still haven't done this.
I still get a laugh when I think of my aunt telling me she was going to tea bag Obama. If only she knew what tea bagging meant.
Your federal income tax pays for none of this.
The original purpose of the income tax was to be collateral to the Federal Reserve for loans it makes to the Treasury. Now it just about pays the interest on the national debt.
Income is "corporate profit". (so said the supreme court)
(unless) you are "wheygey incorporated", and benefit from corporate privelege...
Personally I dont have "income" (because) none of my money comes in! ...I gotta go out and get it.
""Income"" HHMMMMMMMMMM. ...whats in a word? in-come comes-in in-come comes-in.....
But I must be a corporation because I certainly pay taxes on my "income."
...No?
Did H&R Block force you to file?
...are you a govt employee?
If it's a way to legally get out of the income tax, I'm all ears.
returns on stocks and bonds, or are owner or part owner in a corporation, or work for Federal or State govt.
...then I have no advice for you exept pay your taxes.
If you make an hourly wage...we can talk.
I generally would ask for some more information to back up what you say, but as is seen throughout this entire thread, you have an agenda, which is a Libertarian one (and that's fine for you). I don't want to waste my time or yours by trying to convince you that what I think is correct or vice versa. If after reading more information I come to the conclusion that being a Libertarian is the thing for me, I'll let you know.
I hope you have a nice day! Cheers.
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