Orrin Hatch Puts Christian Science Treatments Into Health-Care Reform Bill -- With Kerry and Kennedy's Help.
This is, to say the least, strange. Crazy enough that Hatch inserted it, odder still that Ted Kennedy and John Kerry supported it. But if passed, this will open the floodgates to every fringe group out there:
Reporting from Washington - Backed by some of the most powerful members of the Senate, a little-noticed provision in the healthcare overhaul bill would require insurers to consider covering Christian Science prayer treatments as medical expenses.
The provision was inserted by Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah) with the support of Democratic Sens. John F. Kerry and the late Edward M. Kennedy, both of Massachusetts, home to the headquarters of the Church of Christ, Scientist.
The measure would put Christian Science prayer treatments -- which substitute for or supplement medical treatments -- on the same footing as clinical medicine. While not mentioning the church by name, it would prohibit discrimination against "religious and spiritual healthcare."
It would have a minor effect on the overall cost of the bill -- Christian Science is a small church, and the prayer treatments can cost as little as $20 a day. But it has nevertheless stirred an intense controversy over the constitutional separation of church and state, and the possibility that other churches might seek reimbursements for so-called spiritual healing.
Can you say "Scientology"? I knew you could!
Phil Davis, a senior Christian Science Church official, said prayer treatment was an effective alternative to conventional healthcare.
"We are making the case for this, believing there is a connection between healthcare and spirituality," said Davis, who distributed 11,000 letters last week to Senate officials urging support for the measure.
Don't get me wrong, I happen to believe this myself. But I wouldn't dream of asking other people to pay for my spiritual beliefs without their full knowledge and consent.
And since many Christian fundamentalists consider Christian Science to be a cult, I suspect the uproar will get this pulled out of the bill.
"And since many Christian fundamentalists consider Christian Science to be a cult, I suspect the uproar will get this pulled out of the bill."
As if Christian fundamentalism was any less a cult.
Is this the ""three bailout"" for corporate empires..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/...
Here is more about how 7 Catholic schools in Florida were rescued with public taxpayer money.
The move was unanimously approved by the Manatee County School Board last week, despite contrary advice given by the board's own legal counsel. State law prohibits private schools, that fund themselves, from switching to charter schools that receive state money
None
Bingo.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
and/or a sure sign of mental illness..
what kind of adult with fully functional brain cells belongs to an organized religion???
On topic, why not voodoo? Why not santeria?
Hopefully some day the sane people will win the war over the insane that believe in sky fairies and witch doctors and golden bellies you rub.
It is whorrin hatch!
republicanism/conservatism is a mental illness!
America is dying from it!
As a child, I was raised in "Christian Science" and I watched a family member die of a completely curable disease because of it. Fortunately, I was able to shake off the indoctrination later in life. Faith healing has no place in medicine and certainly no place in the United States government. This provision needs to be pulled quickly, and those who introduced should be ashamed of themselves.
as a kid. Once he had a really reall BAD sunburn; his whole back was one huge blister. So his parents got a group together to pray him well. The blister became infected, and they finally called a doctor. This is in the early 30's- few good antibiotics. Dad said the treatment was excruciating. It left him with a hatred of religion, and a disgust of doctors.
ANYHOW! I think it is time, Susie, that we Progressives start sending lots and lots of letters for Pro-Choice to out Congressman. If 'prayer' is considered a valid medical treatment to be paid for by the Federal Government, then they had better re-think refusing to pay for abortion.
Jackasses.
I am sorry to hear about others who have had to suffer or die because of superstition. These things should not be allowed to happen in the world today. Particularly since it has been definitively proven at this point that prayer does nothing to cure anyone:
http://bioethics.net/journal/j_articles.php?a...
Such things should be illegal at this point and their practitioners should be jailed if the sick person has asked for a doctor and is denied one (or not even that if it's a minor involved).
This is not a matter of faith, it is a matter criminal neglect and should be treated as such. Prayer doesn't work to cure anything, and believing it does won't change that fact.
Anyone who tries to trot out the BS and claim religious freedom over this needs to be ridiculed and shown the studies. If they won't believe the evidence because it goes against their superstitions then they should be ridiculed some more until they just go away.
Human rights ruling against classroom crucifixes angers Italy
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
for your crossbows.
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
Not just Christian Science, but energy medicine and other modalities. I think it could be a good thing.
"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman
He probably won't take it, though. He has integrity.
It'll be a great thing for the charlatans and creeps who prey on the frightened and the ignorant. Wave two pink crystals over your Chakra and call me in the morning. That'll be five hundred bucks.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
There are exactly two medical 'modalities': evidence-based and fraudulent.
We have a winner!
Thank you for elevating this discussion.
Charging money for a 'treatment' that you do not have good evidence of its safety and efficacy is fraud of a most grotesque kind.
Sure, y'all can bring back the travelling snake oil salesman too.
But I'm not closed minded. Any medical treatment should be considered valid - once it has passed a clinical trial and shown itself to be more effective than any alternative with fewer negative repercussions. Because that is the essence of modern medicine; testing the results.
"In theory theory and practice are alike. In practice they are very different."
This is a mixing of state and religion that is truly ugly. Peer reviewed medical science I am willing to pay for as a taxpayer. Spiritual healing is religion and we can and should pay for our spiritual beliefs with our own personal money. Alot of otherwise nice people believe in a lot of spooky stuff and I do not want to pay for it, nor would I expect anyone to pay for my kooky religious beliefs. Not one penny! A truly spiritual organization would be content with their believer's donations or offer their services for free. This is an insult to the taxpayer and religion.
Yeah, probably, but the padre getting the medicare checks is willing to put up with the insults. He'll grin and bear it.
Here's the thing -- when a treatment passes that test, it gets rolled into mainstream medicine. It's happened repeatedly since medicine got on the scientific track with the introduction of germ theory.
Alternative medicine is a name for treatments that have either not taken that test or failed it resoundingly.
"We are making the case for this, believing there is a connection between healthcare and spirituality,"
but in the absence of observable, clinically replicable data (you know, the scientific method) to support it, it has no business in a health care reform bill.
if insurance companies, of their own volition, choose to cover it, that's fine, but a government mandate would, almost certainly, be violative of the establishment clause.
Voodoo doctors and all manner of faith healing then also or it will get tossed as unconstitutional. Pretty straight forward really.
And I thought Ted Kennedy was dead. Did he co-sponser this from 'beyond the grave' or what?
then that's a pretty strong recommendation for it huh?
Is this a sign Kennedy sent us from the bowels of Hell to warn us that Catholicism and all the others are wrong and Christian Science is the one true faith?
Hopefully humanity will one day learn to be humane.
The issue is why is there a cost associated with prayer?
Why does praying to god for healing incur a cost? Who's being paid by this coverage?
I wasn't aware God charged for answering prayers. I wonder what his rates are?
plus double overtime on Sundays!
They set their own pay. $15-$30 per day, per person is not an unusual rate. In return, they spend a few minutes per day praying/communing/reading the Bible or the Mary Baker Eddy book for you, before moving on to the next person on their list.
Isn't it a sin to ask for money in God's name unless it is used for poor persons and others in need? Focus on the Family--take heed.
Here's one Practitioner's reasoning behind the pay. After all, she's a professional! She attended a two-week class and everything! Strangely, your money doesn't get returned to you if you die...
You can't take it with you.
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
If these people are offering a service for money and the govt is going to 'cover' those costs under health care, seems like they'd be liable under a WHOLE mess of regulations that would be uncomfortable for everyone involved.
I guess the provision is really meant just to derail the whole process.
of the Pastafarian persuasion.
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
I'm sure there will be some pastors looking to sweeten their pots by getting in on the action.
Prosperity Gospel + laying of hands "talent" = big bucks for these pastors if ol' Orrin gets his way and sets this precedent...
You betcha...
I've never seen change without a fire
They charge by the pound for their bullshit.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
is who gets paid.
Major upset brewing in NYC.
Bloomberg 49%
Thompson 48%
curiouser.
But what if they dropped the book on their foot?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I suggest we all start praying that we get "cured" of people like Hatch, Boner, McConell, Imhofe, Ensign, Limp Balls, Vitter,
et al.......the sooner the better!
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
Funny thing tobacco gets cured
Then we die.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
smoked. Ham gets cured. Unless it is smoked. Maybe smoking smokes you.
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
You sir ara a wacky nutball. I appreciate it.
"In theory theory and practice are alike. In practice they are very different."
That's a false equivalency between medical health care and faith healers.
Now, if it were only addressing government funds going to church run hospitals, or not allowing hospitals to pass rules forbidding clergy to come in to pray or bless their sick that's another matter entirely.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
is probably Kerry and Kennedy's reasoning (Christian Science HQ in Mass of all places), not any special love of Christian cults. But I'd rather they drew the line for constituent service so as to exclude witch doctors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n7DVxMg97A
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
who had the misfortune of playing catcher in a sandlot game while I was flailing away at the plate. He caught the end of my Louisville Slugger right on his nose. We prayed for him all the way to the ER where he was fixed by less spiritual practioners. Jesus advises wearing a face mask.
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
Seems the Christian Science types need to have the old two boats and a helicopter joke explained to them.
*
I've never seen change without a fire
Godman comics.
"In theory theory and practice are alike. In practice they are very different."
that the U.S. is in on the way to hell...is picking up speed more & more each day.
Seems the freedom of religion nuts combined with the oppression of the ruling class will be the death of the U.S.
I had such high hopes for this country after the Berlin wall fell.
St. Ronnie prayed and preached and Gorby tore it down. At least that is what I remember.
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
I still had high hopes.
a high wall.
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
Susie's answer is wrong. It shouldn't be in the bill not simply because it's a religious belief. It shouldn't be in the bill because it does not work.
Accommodation of medical woo is not tolerance; it's irresponsible and all too often fatal.
Talk about does not work -- take a long look at the American Medical Association and their way of doing business. The medical industry is a joke and there is simply no statistical measure that would give them anymore credence than a child holding their breath past a graveyard.
Doctors get real, measurable results. Perfect they are not, but they are damn good. If you have a serious illness or injury and you are alive when you reach the ER, your chances of leaving under your own power are orders of magnitude higher now than they ever have been in the past. You can deny that if you makes you feel superior, but you might as well deny Copernicus.
Snake handling, magnets and copper bracelets?
Fish and Wildlife
Education
Corrections
We'll need lots of "whole nother "burr-oc-racy for that gummint health care bidness.
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
bipolar and PTSD. If people feel greater comfort from being prayed for in addition to seeking medical treatment, by all means do it. But you'd have to be insane to forgo all treatment in favor of prayer. I never went that far, but I also never got better from all those prayers either.
I've never seen change without a fire
Nothing wrong with that. But asking taxpayers to fund it, that's another thing. And I thought the Republicans were AGAINST having taxpayers fund everything?
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
taxpayers funding government projects until the projects have theocratic undertones, in which case, they want us to pay for them to shove their interpretations of religion down our throats...
I've never seen change without a fire
I had a friend who was crazy Christian (way overboard) and even he knew to build a house he could pray for years, it is always faster to just hire a contractor.
"I know that there are people who do not love their fellow
man, and I hate people like that! " ~ Tom Lehrer (1928 - )
But did anyone catch the ABC remake of "V" tonight?
If so, did you notice that the evil reptilian Visitors were bringing "hope", "change" and "universal health care"?
Total anti-Obama propaganda disguised as sci-fi entertainment.
I admit the show's got visual pizzazz, but the pro-right-wing paranoia is just very disturbia.
Maybe I'm blowing this out of proportion...but if you read the IMDB forums on it, the righties are masturbating with glee over it. They think it's real.
there will be much more propaganda in our future. Aside from some minority rights issues it should be crystal clear by now that the entire MSM is anti progressive on every other front.
That's why they are anti-progressive.
I'm seeing ABC taking a huge swing to the right, lately. I mean all the broadcast networks have been more or less rightish, but ABC is starting to become the Broadcast version of Fox News.
Three fingers Mickey? Shoot, I thought everyone had him pegged. Oh, I forget. You worked for the Houston affiliate.
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
13 wasn't too bad at the time, but it changed.
internet, there is no free press left.
It all started in the 80s, too.
Coincidence? I think not.
Isn't that the brainchild of the Warmongers for Peace Institute?
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
Troll...stop whoring your worthless blog
on for less than 10 minutes
Must have already composed it the sneaky devil.
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
Just check the profile.... I always do, that's how I find the trolls.
on the intertubes. Dang!
It's also called "having no life".
on Cannery Row.
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
/
[IT WOULD HAVE BEEN GOOD OF SOMEONE TO FLAG ONE OF THEM-Sitemonitor]
Corruption favors the wealthy.
noble site monitor. We'll have to be more diligent.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
I was pretty good about flagging this stuff....but I forget that they spam almost every thread.
When you pack the government with people whose sole ideology is to prove government doesn't work, what the fuck do you expect?
Sorry, Mr. Troll, but you'll have better luck elsewhere. Back to your bridge, now.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
The govt wouldn't provide care. They'd pay for it. The problem we have now is that for-profit insurance companies have an interest in NOT paying for the healthcare you may need.
off the top for themselves. They provide no care at all!
Ya, I'm for single payer. I believe in capitalism, but I don't believe EVERYTHING has to be for profit. Some things should be taken care of simply because its good for everyone and it reflects well on who we are as a people. Apparently that makes me Stalin.
They are completely useless in terms of health CARE! They just get rich from humans having this habit of needing health care.
I really hate right-whine porn.
John Lloyd Scharf III. You just resent his new money uppitiness.
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
Maybe if it had been Thurston Howell III.
they never did a Prequel. I bet Thurston Howell, Jr. was a really bad man but an indulgent father.
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
was only 3 seasons. And a couple of really bad TV films. But yeah, it's still around in syndication, but STOP GIVING PEOPLE IDEAS!!!!!
No more remakes or prequels!!!
island?
could build a car and a dentist chair out of bamboo and cocoanuts, I see no problem with walkers.
made from?
Similar, but not quite, to the Flintstones.
but wasn't Star Trek also on for only 3 seasons?
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
Orignal Series: 3 season, endless sindication
11 feature films and counting
TNG: 7 seasons
DS9: 7 seasons
Voy: 7 Seasons
Enterprise: 4 seasons.
Animated series: 2 seasons, I believe
Endless novels/comics.
I think we can say Trek, has an established successful following.
of all the real writers to keep costs down in the third season so just about every episode stank to high heaven. They couldn't afford Harlan Ellison.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
"Spock's Brain"!
;)
floating in space! Arghhh!
Hasa Diga Eebowai
The best way to prevent it is to remove Gilligan's Island from copyright protection. :)
Life's too short to drink bad whine.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
like bad Jewish whine?
"I wanna go to Miami!!!!!"
Sorry, bad joke.
;)
The reason for the Kennedy and Kerry support is simple.
The center of Christian Science is in Boston, MA. I know this, because half my family is involved with this crank cult; and when I went to college and later grad school in the Boston area, they constantly made visits to the mother church when visiting me. This church made the conscious decision way back to make it into the mainstream and to further their goals through things like the Christian Science Monitor and the like. So that is way they can and do get the ear of the likes of the Massachusetts Senators. Religion + Money gets you influence it would seem.
I like the CS Monitor. It's a good rag.
Hopefully humanity will one day learn to be humane.
It's also been completely independent of the church for decades. That's why it manages to be good.
I thought prayer was the Republican healthcare plan?
* There are two types of Republicans: millionaires and suckers.
"Mugsy's Rap Sheet": Recording history for those who seek to rewrite it.
to death. Saves time and money.
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
for their healthcare, while they pray that we just go away, i.e. "die quickly"...
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
Their support probably has more to do with Dems looking for a way to derail reform if they can't do it with bi-partisan support cause they don't have the stones to push it through on their own and they're terrified about midterms.
I think its why no senior Dem nor the WH expressed any anger with Lieberman. Secretly they're all probably relieved. I bet Reid called Lieberman and it went something like this...
Reid: Lieberman!!!
Lieberman: Sorry Harry, had to do it. Insurance, Co's own me lock stock and barrel, you know how it is. Plus with my wife working with them, frankly we're making a bundle off of this. Every time it looks like reform is tanking our stock shoots up.
Reid: Ha ha ha! I'm not mad, I'm calling to thank you! We almost accomplished something on our own, thanks for pulling our chestnuts out of the fire, Joe!
Christian Science headquarters is in Massachusetts.
A former award-winning journalist and lifelong class warrior, keeping a jaundiced eye on the Washington elite.
And since many Christian fundamentalists consider Christian Science to be a cult, I suspect the uproar will get this pulled out of the bill.
Not quite. I'd bet money Hatch put it in because the ensuing uproar might torpedo the bill altogether. It's exactly the kind of under-handed crap the Rethugs love to pull.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
And hello, there are many of us out here...to put a "Christian" label on Old Old tenets is ridiculous, but understandable (esp. media wise).
Maybe we need that. 70 Million boomers could have their own "package".
Health maintenance till age 100. $1.5 Million payable in installments $500,000.00 down payment. When death is not an option.
The voting machines have been impounded.
The criminals don't like losing.
the Adirondacks.
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
thank you very much.
been the voting machines/software. Purchased from a Venezuelan company that also "assisted" in the election of Chavez when it was widely held that he would lose in a big way. Google Sequoia Voting Systems. Interesting.
y'all?
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
The plural.
What's that in Yankee?
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
.
You mean like in "Shaft is a bad mutha..."
Ooops....shut my mouth.
It is also used in place of the perennial "mofo."
said the blind man.
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
That's Yankee for the house wine of the South, is it not?
was that Wilson guy from South Crackerliner.
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
was "youse guys".
.
"all yins guys" in Pittsburgh.
"Now go red up your room!"
with an annual annuity when I arrive in Styxville.
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
"The very good NY political blog Albany Project has "called" NY23 for Owens."
Corruption favors the wealthy.
I just wonder what hell we are in for tomorrow. I mean we ARE dealing with established sore losers.
Now you've got me worrying...
I've never seen change without a fire
teeth. Don't worry.
hope they don't riot. I wouldn't put it past them!
I've never seen change without a fire
Just think--no Dem has held that seat for over 100 years. Thanks wing nuts. Thanks Sarah, Pawlenty, Rush, Santorem, Armey, Club for Growth. All y'all. Thank you so much. Bye now. Don't come back now, hear?
Over half the life of the nation.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
I am savoring this victory. I am also listening to Buchanan whine in the background. His voice is all high and snivelly. A "two'fer."
is already cheering Bloomberg win and Virginia win as bad for Obama. They'll probably cheer gay marriage overturn tomorrow too. Liberal media!
I was wondering the exact same thing: the republicans losing a seat they have held for over 130 motherf*cking years, no biggie. The GOP winning 2 expected races... gets extrapolated as a "defeat" for Obama.
WTF!
SFW!
And I want to see Erick Erickson try to explain how the Bloomberg win was good for conservatives. If there has ever been anyone more worthy of the RINO tag than Bloomberg, I'd like to know who it is.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
It is just so bold faced these days. It is amazing that we went from having political division based on ideological divergences, to have political strife artificially created and encouraged by ratings.
"I just wonder what hell we are in for tomorrow " , yeah , me too . Bush and the neocons damned near destroyed the country and now the Repugs and far right are out to finish the job . Tonight I read a good Oped by Eugene Washington the Washington Post " A world of change in 287 days " , kinda puts things in perspective I think .
Woo hoo! Government funded ayahuasca ceremonies for everybody!
Gittchigoome or do I have the wrong Nelson Eddy song?
" it is a sign of what happens when you have Chicago-style politics, and the president of the United States and his political minions are, in essence, using our tax dollars to buy corporate advertising"
Karl "Unindicted" Rove
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