Huckabee brings on David Barton to promote his far-right theories on church-state separation
By David Neiwert Monday Aug 03, 2009 4:00pm
This weekend on his Fox News program, Mike Huckabee -- who probably still harbors some kind of presidential ambitions -- brought on a special guest named David Barton to talk about the separation of church and state. Barton brought with him a number of cool colonial-era artifacts that he used to bolster his claims that "the separation of church and state is a myth."
Among them, for example, is a document signed by Thomas Jefferson that reads "in the year of our Lord Christ." Barton uses this to point out that Jefferson was an ardent believer in Christianity.
This is fairly typical of Barton's dishonest approach to the matter: It's unremarkable that Jefferson would sign his documents that way, since he was indeed a Christian -- but he was moreover a Christian Deist:
Individual deists varied in the set of critical and constructive elements for which they argued. Some deists rejected miracles and prophecies but still considered themselves Christians because they believed in what they felt to be the pure, original form of Christianity – that is, Christianity as it existed before it was corrupted by additions of such superstitions as miracles, prophecies, and the doctrine of the Trinity. Some deists rejected the claim of Jesus' divinity but continued to hold him in high regard as a moral teacher (see, e.g., Thomas Jefferson's famous Jefferson Bible and Matthew Tindal's 'Christianity as Old as the Creation').
And so it goes throughout the segment -- Barton trotting out bits of arcania with which he bolsters his claim, and Huckabee credulously lapping it all up.
But it take only a little research to uncover the fact that Barton has a history of specious research. For years his book, The Myth of Separation -- which he's been selling since the early '90s -- has featured bogus quotes, made-up nonsense, and flat-out falsified history that has been dismantled time and again. Rob Boston debunked Barton thoroughly back then, and his methodology has not improved measurably since. (Here's a page devoted to exposing Barton's multitude of bogus quotations from the Founding Fathers.)
Moreover, as Boston notes, Barton has a long history of dalliances with the extremist fringes of the far right:
Barton also has ties to extremist elements. In his literature, Christian Reconstructionist authors and organizations are sometimes recommended. Reconstructionist activist Gary DeMar's book God And Government is suggested reading, and Reconstructionist-oriented groups such as the Plymouth Rock Foundation and the Providence Foundation are touted as resources.
Perhaps most alarming, Barton also has had a relationship with the racist and anti-Semitic fringes of the far right. According to Skipp Porteous of the Massachusetts-based Institute for First Amendment Studies, Barton was listed in promotional literature as a "new and special speaker" at a 1991 summer retreat in Colorado sponsored by Scriptures for America, a far-right ministry headed by Pastor Pete Peters. Peters' organization, which is virulently anti-Semitic and racist, spreads hysteria about Jews and homosexuals and has been linked to neo-Nazi groups. (The organization distributes a booklet called Death Penalty For Homosexuals.)
Peters' church is part of the racist "Christian Identity" movement. and three members of The Order, a violent neo-Nazi organization, formerly attended Peters' small congregation in LaPorte, Cole. After members of The Order murdered Denver radio talk show host Alan Berg in the mid 1980s, critics of Peters' ministry in Colorado charged that his hate-filled sermons had spurred the assassination.
Barton also campaigned in Washington state for Ellen Craswell, the 1996 GOP gubernatorial candidate, who ran on a "Reconstructionist" platform and later became involved the far-right Constitution Party.
The Myth of Separation similarly was a staple on the book tables at Patriot/militia gatherings in the 1990s, and was sold prominently through mail-order outfits like the Militia of Montana.
It sure is interesting to watch all this militia stuff from the '90s come bubbling back up in the post-Bush era. And it's even more interesting to see how it's getting mainstreamed by cable-TV talkers.
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I'm anti-christan, yet often exclaim "Jesus Christ!" or some derivative thereof. Usually when doing very un-christian things too.
is very unchristian, too, blasphemer. :D
Who amongst us hasn't yelled out "Oh God! Oh God!" in bed?
Wait, I don't want to know.
;)
I just make this growling snarling sound.
for sharing.
When they scratch my hairy belly, my left leg jerks up and down.
You're just trying to get me excited.
"they scratch"?
sounds like we have a regular casanova in our midst
*
"Who amongst us hasn't yelled out "Oh God! Oh God!" in bed?"
I'm sure Mark Sanford, being the devout Christian man he is, was yelling it out when he went a hiking atop those Argentine mountains!
Using his tripod to take pictures of their beautiful peaks, all awash in tan lines.
With Hitchens being both a scholar on Thomas Jefferson and an athiest, he'd tear these ignorant right wing rubes to shreds...
3 sheets to the wind.
I think you used the wrong vowel in sheets.
American culture has become. A non-stop circus of the seven deadly sins.
Gula (gluttony)
Fornicatio (fornication, lust)
Avaritia (avarice/greed)
Tristitia (sorrow)
Ira (wrath)
Acedia (acedia/despair)
Vanagloria (vainglory)
Superbia (Pride)
Before they listed any other rights (freedom of speech, press, assembly, or even freedom OF religion), they listed freedom from religion.
Mike Huckabee pals around with terrorists?
Let's make this clear: The United States is a CHRISTIAN NATION! This country was founded by CHRISTIANS (who mercilessly slaughtered millions of natives for their land because they claimed God wanted them to) Thomas Jefferson also grew and smoked what he called "hemp". Where's the "patriotic" support for that?
God bless you my son for your observation.
and beads.
Kind of like a Bush tax rebate.
it seems the bead story did not materialize until the late 19th century, some 200 years after the deal went down, and most likely attributable to "writer's creative license" (insert jesus and the gospels, as well as barton and a christian nation, here)
I just want to say that I am always very impressed with David Neiwert's posts. His intellegence oozes out of his writing.
Just saying.
I always have to refrain from a hero-worshipping post of, "NeiwART! NeiwART! NeiwART!". And I can nearly always spot a DN post from the first few sentences, just from the sentence structure and insightful observations. He rocks it.
we're going to change the wing nuts.
ya, only idiots think they can change the insane using logic, again and again and again, hoping that one time they will understand.
So if the entire Thuglican party is insane, how are you going to be bipartisan with that?
I don't know how she even got traction in this state. But then I think of that other old ahole Tim Eyeman and go "Yeah. It could happen."
Craswell felt that gay rights were "special rights for sodomites." Hateful old bag.
I gues she was okay with the whole lesbian thing then.
;)
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
Ezekiel 16:49 (King James Version)
...a lot like a rich Republican...
Pride: check
Fullness of bread (plenty to eat): check
Abundance of idleness(Complacency with the status quo): check
Did not strengthen the hand of the poor an needy: check
Conclusion: Sodom and Gomorrah were inhabited by proto-Republicans.
Any relation to Frodo?
Virginians called Jefferson "The Great Atheist" until his dying day, because he wrote an even stronger statement against religion and state merging in their constitution.
It's my understanding he actually wrote a stronger statement in the national document, but the others talked him out of it as being to strong to gain support.
What these buffoons fail to understand is the Founding Fathers, whatever their beliefs, some were Deist and some Freemason, didn't want to impose it by law.
No one is forbidden to be religious to run for office, sometimes it seems quite the opposite, but they are forbidden to breach the Establishment Clause, called the Separation of Church and State from a letter Jefferson wrote, and popularized by the Baptists and Methodists, during the Second Great Awakening so as not to be run over by the Episcopelians (Anglicans), Presbyterian (Church of Scotland), and Roman Catholics.
All these church groups used the clause greatly during the late 19th century to avoid tax moneys going to church schools being set up by Jews and Roman Catholics who were tired of being called "Christ-killers," and "superstitious papists," among other things in their children's classrooms.
your have to either think your religious or you fake being religious.
..I'm sure they'll try to sneak an amendment remedying that "lack" as soon as they regain both the Legislative & Executive Branches..
My point, however, was however Jefferson defined his own beliefs, he did not put them into any national documents, so at best this huckabee guest is engaging in an Ignoratio Elenchi.
Why is it we on the left can so often debunk these assholes who try to force this crap on the citizens of out great country? I don't every see the right offering up a post like this about somebody on the left. As close as I have seen is "Obama palled around with domestic terrorists." Of course here is Huckleberry palling around with somebody who could be called a domestic terrorist. But my question remains. When are we always able to debunk these freaks whenever they stick their head out of their holes? Why can't they just tell the truth??????
There is a guy who posts here (forgive me for not remembering his name) who says being a Republican is a sickness. I kind of laugh when I see it but now I'm thinking that it is very true. They are psychotic.
I've always been registered as independent but have noticed for several years that especially on TV but even out in the world that I could tell a republican after listening to them talk for a while. They have this 'better than most' 'screw you if you haven't made it' type of attitude. A lack of belief in human social rights that is evident early on in most conversations. I'm sure that many just follow what they're taught and so would be harder to read but it seems to hold true most of the time. I'm just sayin'...
I laugh, because it is true!
"It's unremarkable that Jefferson would sign his documents that way, since he was indeed a Christian"
I think that even conceding this is giving way too much to the theists. Jefferson admired the teachings of Jesus just as he admired Socrates and other great religious and philosophical figures. But he did not believe in a personal supreme being, baptism, confession, the "holy spirit" or any of the ideas or practices that make up Christian religions. He even wrote a book where he excerpted the sayings of Christ related to living a moral life from all the religious trappings, to emphasize that Jesus was just another moral man but not divine.
The fact that the Huckster would take this one saying "in the name of our lord..." as some kind of proof is just one more example of the gross ignorance of the right. It was just a convention people used at the time. Its like saying Richard Dawkins is a Christian because he referenced some dates in a book on evolution with "B.C". It means "Before Christ" so obviously Dawkins is really a Christian. Idiotic.
his whole message in a nutshell was don't you understand what and who you are people?
Jeff almost "got it" but he was still way to wrapped up into his ego to rise above and beyond the mundane reality we're stuck in still.
Rome is Christian Nation Buddy! Founded by God himself!
"Romulus and Remus are the traditional founders of Rome, appearing in Roman mythology as the twin sons of the Vestal Virgin Rhea Silvia, fathered by the god of war, Mars. According to the tradition recorded as history by Plutarch and Livy, Romulus served as the first King of Rome." (ref-wiki)
we won't go into the twins early years: the fig tree, the feral stint with the wolf, lupa, etc...
But you forgot Aeneas with his father Anchises and his young son Ascanius. Aeneas was semi-divine since his mother was the Goddess Venus.
Interesting thing about Romulus and Remus is that they preceded Moses in being found as infants on the Tiber river, but in their case by a she-wolf. Then they were found by a shepherd Faustulus who brought them home to be cared for by his wife Larentia.
The interesting part is the Latin term Lupae means both she-wolf and prostitute. Faustulus sounds like a variation of Faunus, Rome's version of Pan; and, Larentia sounds like another version of Lares which is the Latin term for ancestral house spirits.
So with Aeneas you have the hero who's half god, and with Romulus and Remus the water, the miracle, the shepherd and the holy mother all wrapped up quite early.
Rhea was the early name for a Earth Goddess comparable to Gaea. And Silvia sounds like a variation of Silvanus, the Roman God of untilled land.
What book you read. Wasn't until the Council on Nicea where a bunch of guys under orders from the Emperor decided what books were cannon, but before that even the divinity of Jesus was in question, some texts say he was others say no.
The really funny part about the whole thing is that it was a black Bishop from Egypt that was most responsible for the form the Bible took, and now we have white trash supremacists who like to take the Bible literally.
Huckabee needs a new party or he will never get his Theocracy off the ground.
Perhaps Huckabee will settle for a large religious sect, out in the desert somewhere. They could build a ranch and a huge dormatory where they all can live together. I hear that can be successful.
It worked for David Koresh....
....oh wait.
who thought he was some great Prophet.
For a minute, I thought you were making some kinda capitalist joke.
;)
for a bit . . as long as people we're willing to hand over their money. "Pay for Access"
Move out to some African jungle compound and call the place "Huckabeetown."
This is the usual cherry-picking and revisionism. He ignores the Jefferson Bible, and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. I doubt he's dumb, he's a dangerous propagandist and theocrat.
who ignore history are doomed to
repeatrewrite it.he's busy.
Mary and Jesus do have a lot of tortillas to appear on, so I suppose God is like their manager or agent. Of course, God's also got all those sodomites to smite, as well as answer all those "Kill Obama" prayers, as well as all that faith healing, so yes, His plate is pretty full.
In case no one noticed.
Shut up!
LOL
at other posters makes Baby Jesus cry.
:(
oops delete (reply posted in error/wrong threadlet)
Let me tell you a little something about God.
God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts! He gives this extraordinary gift and then--what does he do? I swear--for his own amusement--his own private cosmic gag reel--he sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time! Look. But don't touch! Touch. But don't taste! Taste. Don't swallow! And while you're jumping from one foot to the next, he's laughing his sick fucking ass off!! He's a tight ass, he's a sadist, he's an absentee landlord!!
...they play with us for their sport.
chance gardener
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.
-Thomas Jefferson, Jan 1, 1802
“The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”
— Thomas Jefferson
And this:
“God is a being of terrific character...cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust.”
— Thomas Jefferson
And, remembering that Huckaboo is a Baptist minister:
“The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man.”
— Thomas Jefferson
I'm so fucking sick of these Christian Mullahs trying to undermine the sanctity of my freedom from religion. As a history professor once told me outside the classroom. "The more you come to understand the history of Christianity to more you come to understand why the Romans through them to the lions."
Now that's one pointy head professor who may have had a point.
I debate this with my brainwashed Republican & fundamentalist Christian older brother- he feels that freedom can come ONLY through the worship of Jesus, and that by trying to 'persude' people to worship Jesus, Christians are in fact spreading freedom. Thus if you reject jesus, then you lack freedom.
My brother (and other brainwashed radical Christians like him) feels that athiesm is like a disease, and the 'cure' is jesus- So the worship of Jesus is the 'innocualtion' non beleievrs must recieve, whether they like it or not. I ask him how is his belief any differnt thanradical islam- His answer?
Jesus.
God help me...
Explain to him in the same terms that atheism and freedom from the shackles of religion is freedom and that Christianity is a disease and let him see how he feels.
Mon, 08/03/2009 - 18:15 — Tom Servo
But that's a Circulus in Probando.
If freedom can only come though worshiping Christ, then how do Japanese citizens enjoy a lot of freedoms when Christianity is a very small minority there?
I'm taking the premise that he believes this is a Christian nation.
I'd also ask, if freedom comes though the worship of Christ, and this is a Christian nation, then why do I not have the freedom to own an M-60 machine gun?
Lion #1: Braaaaap!
Lion #2: Yeah, I know. Christians give everybody heartburn.
Lion: Man another Christian?! Last time I ate one I had the shits for a week, screw it I ain't eating him.
Daniel: The Lord God has saved me!
Lion: No, my irritable bowl syndrome did...
i was just checking out some of these jagoff's "intelligent design" crap on the internet. not impressed.
let me know when they get to the part of the bible where jesus rides the dinosaur, will ya?
Hell, that's no harder to swallow than the virgin birth.
If she swallowed, no messiah would've been born.
http://www.stuartngbooks.com/hamlin_alley_oop...
What does it say in the bible about frying up a squirrel in a popcorn popper?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj3QAzSWVA4
I must have missed that part. What does it say? "This is a squirrel, and this is a squirrel on poppers?"
When I want information about the separation of church and state, I'll actually read the Constitution, not listen to two religious guys on Fox News (of all places).
I wonder what other religious gems they'll find that Constitutional scholars have somehow failed to correctly interpret over all these years.
Aside from the fallacious arguments.
If these guys are actually handling the historical books and documents, they are destroying them! In my work I occasionally handle historic documents dating to the early 1900. They are fragile and brittle and you must handle them with acid free cloth gloves. What morons!
I was wondering about the age of the book in the picture for just that reason.
I used to work in a Research Library.
Snopes is pretty good and is considered authoritative at debunking urban legends. However mostly[1] they won't go anywhere near the various lies actively spread by Christianists such as
1) Darwin on his deathbed denounced Evolution and embraced Christianity.
2) George Washington was a practicing Christian, or any of the bogus evidence supporting this point such as his prayer book.
There are a lot of these lies that have been put forth by Barton and his ilk but Snopes doesn't want to touch them.
[1] Here are all of the Snopes entries debunking Christian lies I can find, though none of them appear on the religion page.
George Washington told of an angel who revealed a prophetic vision of America to him at Valley Forge.
Crocodile hunter Steve Irwin became a born-again Christian a few weeks before he died.
"Because religious belief or non-belief is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights.
Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society."
["Thomas Jefferson on Politics & Government", Section 46: Freedom of Religion]
"All religions can't be right. All religions can be wrong!"
Something about Christianity was wrong when I noticed some of the biggest dicks I knew were devout Christians.
I'm pretty sure being a collosal dick to people wasn't something Jesus would endorse.
LIARS FOR JESUS!
Dear god, please protect me from those who believe in you.
I once heard Huckabee state that it's easier to change the Constitution than it is to change the ten commandments. I knew right then and there that he was a dangerous wingnut.
I'm still not sure how the Thomas Jefferson argument could be relevant. Even is he WAS against the separation of church and state (and I'm not suggesting he was), would that make his stance Constitutionally correct?
If we look at it half of the 10 Commandments are nothing more than universal morals.
Don't kill people.
Don't steal from people.
Don't fuck another dude's wife.
Don't be a dick to people.
Don't be a dick to your parents.
It would definitely be easier to amend the Constitution than to make murder or theft legal. Though if they somehow did that I'd be on my way to the sporting goods section at Big 5 right now, to stock up and hunt the most dangerous game.
Just kidding these two make me sick. I hate how Huckabee uses that good old folksy, charming, rock'n roll, nice guy far right nutjob facade, all the while spewing out his anti Constitutional theocrazy-loving bullshit! And don't get me started about Barton-that guy has some extreme racist evango-nazi crap views!
Pieces of work, these two.
I just had some god freaks come to my door this morrning. They started with there god shit and I ask them, does your gof watch out for the kids. they said yes, god watches out for kids. I told them, so god was watching a little girl of 7 years ride her bike in Co. There was also a man watching this same little girl ride her bike. this man was a child raper and killer. I ask them, why did your god watch as the child killer grab the little girl, put her in his car, and drove in to the mountians and rape her then killed her. I guess your god had other things to do. The one joy I had was when this pice of shit was executed at Az State Prison. The one thing was all the pro lifers there in protest of the death sentence. F them. wonder how they feel if the 7 year old girl was there kid.
...the most PRO separation of church & state document on the planet is the BIBLE itself,... anyone who thinks that the Hebrew messiah died by crucifixion to shill for these political hacks is a cultist at best,...
The Treaty o' Tripoli.
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