Memo to O'Reilly: Detainee-photo uproar a reminder that torture always puts our soldiers at risk too
By David Neiwert Friday May 15, 2009 7:45am
Last night Bill O'Reilly unleashed one of his patented Falafel Jihads against the ole-time liberal-hater's favorite, the ACLU, for having had the audacity not only to sue to have those photos of detainee abuse released, but to have actually won in court.
For that, O'Reilly last night flatly accused the ACLU of setting out to harm the nation, and in fact being solely motivated by the desire to hold the country up to humiliation and expose our soldiers to harm. Seriously. Of course, he produces nary a scintilla of evidence to buttress his claims, but then, he's Bill O'Reilly. He doesn't have to.
What's clearly never occurred to O'Reilly is the reality that what he's looking at is one of the very pragmatic and practical reasons American forces have historically eschewed torture: Indulging it not only gives our enemies a rationale to employ it on our own soldiers when captured, but in fact motivates them to capture our soldiers solely for the purpose of retaliatory torture.
That has been one of the little-observed but longstanding and overwhelming ethical reasons to oppose any kind of torture for these prisoners, and has been all along, ever since it was outlawed internationally and nationally: that condoning any kind of abuse provides a pretext for our enemies to do the same, or worse, to American prisoners held abroad.
Moreover, the inevitable Arab anger over the photos further demonstrates know that torturing prisoners makes us less safe -- because, as the 2006 National Intelligence Estimate indicated, these actions provide a profound motivation for radicalizing young Muslims. Another study, as Fox recently reported, found a concrete connection between the Abu Ghraib torture photos and the recruitment of suicide bombers in Iraq.
No one wants to put American soldiers deeper in harm's way. But Bill O'Reilly needs to be confronted with the cold fact that it wasn't the actions of the ACLU that put them in that position -- it was the profoundly unwise policy choices of the Bush administration, and its many, many apologists for instituting a torture regime.
Bill O'Reilly, of course, being among the foremost cheerleaders.
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When I saw this last night, I was so pissed that in my email to the falafel king, I literally said "screw you" twice. How dare he call my parents "guilty," simply because they are members of the ACLU?
Did falafel Bill call G.W. Bush "guilty" when he said, "Bring 'em on?" How many military personnel were injured or killed because of that statement? And Bush was the "commander-in-chief," not just some member of some group.
Screw BillO the Jerk
When I first became aware of the right wing echo chamber in the media (after many blissful years of simply ignoring television and talk radio altogether), this is one of the things that most angered me: the gross generalizations made about entire classes of individuals. I'd hear myself and others being vilified for supposed offenses that the entire group was supposedly guilty of.
Now it's all old hat, and accusations from idiots like O'Reilly have lost their sting because with repetition comes an inability to take them seriously. I'd ignore them entirely if it weren't for the influence their media positions provide them.
If you simply remember that Bill'O, and all the wingnuts for that matter, accuse people of doing exactly what they would do if they were in the same position, it all makes sense. It has nothing to do with objective reality. It is their own warped reality that they see in everyone else and they simply can't process or comprehend anything different.
Rush Limbaugh is only one of a list of right wing nutcases who have run to the ACLU when they felt their "rights" were being trod upon.
In Rush's case, it was his inalienable right to privacy to protect him from the fact that he is addicted to prescription drugs.
Kind of hard to portray yourself as a bastion of personal responsibility when the people that admire you find out that you can't keep your chubby hands outta the medicine cabinet.
You are truly an anti-American scumbag.
was kind of like ER and ERII. Or is that too anglophilic?
lol
if he was bloody King BillO of England. It had nothing to do with the ball team in Philadelphia.
I am just trying to keep Tyler on his toes with my obscure moves.
... to regain our moral standing in the world is to clean house, from top to bottom. We and the world must be shown that the use of torture was a lawless aberration that America will neither tolerate nor try to pretend never happened.
throw ALL the fascist fat cats OUT!
The way he said Hartenstiieen was just dripping with derision, and anti-semitic. Shameon you BillO. BTW I thought Shame on had a space between the e and the o. I guess the Fox Spell checker knows better english than I do. Or at least a different version, which might explain how their version of fair and balanced doesn't seem to match mine!
some legal way to issue a hunting permit on Bill O'Reilly.
Wouldn't it be great if we could buy the bastard for what he's worth and sell him for what he THINKS he's worth? Recession over, right there.
Count on Bill'O to spin without regard for the facts.
The ultimate irony in all of this is that the ACLU is such a principled organization when it comes to the defense of civil liberties, that they would even defend the likes of O'Reilly if his civil rights were violated by the government.
Some of the older readers of C&L may remember when the ACLU defended the right of American Nazis to march in Skokie back in 1977 based on Constitutional free speech concerns.
nazi they defended. They defended Rush's rights on his medical records.
http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/faculty/2009/0...
If I might quote Justice Brandeis as quoted in the post,
"fear breeds repression; that repression breeds hate; that hate menaces stable government;... the path of safety lies in the opportunity to discuss freely supposed grievances and proposed remedies; and ... the fitting remedy for evil counsels is good ones.”
The Nazis' desire to hold a march in Skokie ultimately led the citizens of the town to found an organization and to build a Holocaust Memorial Museum. A "fitting remedy" indeed.
Involving an awesome right used by awful folks.
Ooops sorry. That's what happens the instant Bill's hologram appears seems to be natural instinct.
of savage weiner in the soup?
Wow, this "debate" over torture seems to be tailor-made for the old metaphor: "Can't see the forest through the trees".
Be it Bill-O excoriating the release of "photos" of a crime he defends, or lambasting Pelosi for helping to "cover up" the crimes they were committing... they are doing a bang-up job of "Hey! Look over there! A Democrat!"
PS: Another thought... why aren't these uber-hawks BEGGING for release of the photos to "put fear in the hearts of our enemies"? It seems like exactly the kind of position they'd rally behind.
CIA 'lied' about torture techniques
America's most senior lawmaker accuses the CIA of lying about torture
http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com...
Nancy Pelosi says the CIA did not tell Congress they were actually waterboarding suspects in 2002 - only that the techniques were legal. President Obama yesterday decided to halt the publication of hundreds of photographs of detainees abused in Iraq and Afghanistan. Tonight the former commander of Abu Ghraib prison told Channel 4 News the photographs must be published - and says they prove the notorious practices were widespread and sanctioned at the highest level
If you take a step back and look at O'Reilly's show with fresh eyes, it's probably the most Orwellian thing on television. It's a split screen with a man arguing fascist ideas on one side, and brief, monosyllabic restatements of those points on the other side of the screen.
Really-- how creepy is that?
the Ministry of Truth, or minitruth if you may...
as Comedy Central, without the intelligent humor and biting satire.
Mad TV?
Why is it that you have a separate tag for 'audacity' and 'Bill O'Reilly'?
LOL!!
Hope...which includes Obama
and
Dope...which includes a plethora of FOX on air personalities.
I stand corrected.
Billy, the ACLU just wants the truth to be exposed and help salvage the reputation you imbeciles have shitted all over. Not once did this mother fucker take any responsibility for the evil acts by Americans on those photos. O'Reilly is a dangerous fool, especially to the troops.
BOR wouldn't know a fact if it bit him on the leg.
were finally coming around.
to me about this is that O'Reilly has multitudes of fans who continue to watch, meaning that apparently they don't see the folly of his accusing the ACLU of "wanting" to hurt America. Motive, please? In his world, it isn't the torture program that puts our troops at risk; it's the coverage of the torture. It isn't the past administration's disregard for international law and treaties that creates a problem for us, but rather the "left wing loons" who want to investigate what happened. And apparently his throngs of viewers are ready to believe that the ACLU, and anyone else who doesn't eagerly accept the Cheney/Jack Bauer world view, are actively seeking to embarrass and endanger our country. Discouraging, indeed.
That's another point I brought up last night to the Falafel King.
BillO the Jerk disparaged those who claimed that Bush and Cheney went to war in Iraq over oil. He called them all sorts of names, including "left wing loons."
Well, Mr. Jerk....that's exactly what you are now doing, saying that the ACLU "wants" to hurt America.
He's a right wing loon and far worse.
not because they are being tortured..
and his was singular not plural because he cannot handle more than one freedom at a time.
... Bush was only planning to leave us with one freedom.
be peasants?
O'Reilly is one hard-core fascist.
..the rantings of an idiot are not that important to me. One day the world will wake up!
U.S. government wants to lie to you and is hopelessly immoral. There is no excuse to support this organization any longer. The people of the world must come together and rid the planet of this scourge on humanity.
..Bloofah, just how has the ACLU hurt America? By forcing people to own up to their crimes? Releasing photos going to hurt our troops? Really? Who put them in harm's way? I think that the troops have more to worry about than a few photos regardless of the torture or abuse they demonstrate. Can you say "Electric Showers" or "Not enough WATER"? Not to mention, suicide bombers, snipers, capture & beheading because of torture and abuse, etc. ad nauseum. Its the Bush Administration and the Obama administration (if Obama doesn't appoint a SP soon) that has to worry. What the ACLU did is what the government didn't have the balls to do, transparency.
Isn't this a bit like a rapist, who is confronted with evidence of his crime, accusing the person with the evidence of slander?
anything that shows american foreign policy and our armed forces/intelligence services/paid mercenaries in a bad light should never be released to the public.
so, please don't show the photos ever.
also: don't show nor report on civilian casualties.
and, please, don't show images of any detention facilities.
and, stop any and all reporting on any innocent men, women, children that have been blown to bits, or shot, or burnt.
refugees: avoid mentioning them too.
so, from hence forth any and all reporting about our armed forces and our foreign policy should only be based on how awesome we are. reporting on torture, civilian deaths, human rights violations, the millions of displaced might give the appearance that we are not as awesome as we think we are.
as we have been brought up to believe: keep quiet, don't ask shit, and mind your own fucking business.
Don't show the coffins of our service people who gave their lives for ExxonMobile.
"God Hates Fags" signs.
"Fuck it. I'll do it myself."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2YDq6FkVE
The problem with the troops is that they are essentially captives of the government's policies. They serve the country, even when it's leaders are criminals. They follow orders because the definition of illegal orders is pretty fuzzy when your superiors are in your face saying it's all legit and you hear about other soldiers who's lives (and all military relationships) were ruined over it. So it's true, if their leaders do evil things the troops are left with the feeling that they have enabled that evil and it is bad for morale.
That's why the leaders must always act responsibly. When they act criminally, they have lead the troops into it with them. If the leaders are not severely punished for forcing the troops into a criminal environment, every member of the military involved is marked with that unresolved shame, forever.
We can mass murder, commit genocide, torture, steal, lie etc. and yet remain the greatest Nation on earth. But if a few idiots kill three thousand of our people, all hell will break loose and no rule of law or honor matters.
smash things?
mostly politicians teeth right down their throats.
hanging off of Carrie Preteen's chest...I mean Prejean; I must have been looking at the "Before" photo where she only had GOD's inferior boobs.
AAAAuuurgh! The right has become so ponderously silly that it's hard to keep it all straight.
As, indeed, it seems to be impossible to keep Republicans straight...
Killing their people, sodomizing their children, strafing their weddings, breaking their families and destroying their country is probably just hunky dory with them.
gets American soldiers killed. And he's perfectly fine with that because then when the soldiers are killed by people who didn't take kindly to their innocent relatives and friends being torured to death O'Reilly can put that on his sick anti-American TV program and say "Look, look, look what they're doing to our soldiers." He quite literaly WANTS US soldiers to be killed for his ratings. It's the Right-Wing way - do something so evil that you'll be attacked for it and then claim you're being persecuted.
I've honestly been torn about this. I have a nephew currently serving in Iraq and another nephew will be deployed there next January. I am concerned the photos could further incite violence that could make them less safe.
On the other hand, transparancy is very important. Not just for these photos, but also for those who committed these acts. Were they just disciplined or did they go to prison? What about their superiors? What happened to them? How far up did the punishment go? Publicizing the photos could also bring us one step closer to punishing those responsible.
Upon further reflection, it seems to me that publicizing the photos, in addition to publicizing what happened to those who carried out those acts could also keep any notions of reprisals down...that is if they were truly dealth with as they deserve. That means imprisonment.
If the rest of the world sees us dealing with those who designed, planned and implemented the torture program in the proper way under the law, then it's foreseeable that could pave the way for even better relations.
must be our hallmarks if we expect to be seen as the leader of the free world. We must be willing to look into the dark corners, and fearlessly follow the evidence where it leads. The rest of the world is carefully watching us right now to see whether we apply our high standards of conduct to ourselves, or whether we are hypocritical windbags. They will judge us not by our lofty ideals, but by how well we police ourselves.
One of the issues here is, when they released or specifically when the photos at abu grahib were leaked, they charge enlisted personnel and claimed that it was only a small group that abused the prisoners. We know that's bunk. If the new photos are released, it will show that is was NOT a small group of enlisted personnel and the authorization came from higher up. Its a simple case of C-Y-A!
Thank you for reminding me to make a donation to the ACLU to help protect American soldiers from criminals who commit torture! As a veteran I of course have a duty to do so to assist my brothers and sisters in arms. Your reminder is appreciated.
It's the Reslug lying bastards, like o'Lielly, Fattity, Limp-Dick, that are the true terrorists of this country and truely hate America so much.
in exchange for starting a criminal investigation into the whole torture mess starting at the top with Bush and working it's way down.
The US is beginning to fall behind other industrialized nations in several development indicators: http://www.aneki.com/comparison.php?country_1...
republicans sound like the bad guy at the end of the show, "...if it wasn't for you meddling kids."
doing things that endanger our troops is fine as long as we don't get caught. then if we do it's actually the fault of the people that found out.
they have some kind of high-tech reality-reversal machine that proves it.
damn that scooby-doo
Torture endangers our troops and our country. Torture gives the rest of the world more reasons to hate us. Torture is NEVER justified because it is illegal.
When the hell do the trials start?
his own remarks have probably put our troops in danger? No, of course, he wouldn't.
On 6/17/2004, BillO said he has "no respect" for the Iraqi people. He thinks they are "prehistoric" and "primitive" and all we can "do is bomb the living daylights out of them".
Words like that are incendiary and cause people to hate the US and our troops.
http://mediamatters.org/research/200406180005
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