Reframing The Debate On Torture The Correct Way
By Nicole Belle Monday May 18, 2009 1:00pmDavid Waldman, also known as Kagro X at DailyKos and Congress Matters, appeared on a CNN webshow and showed these mealy-mouthed Democratic Party talking heads how to really frame and control the debate on torture. Finally, someone on who has a firm grasp of the facts and will not allow the discussion to get sidetracked to pointless distractions. Jane Hamsher put it best:
The successful hijacking of the torture debate by its proponents obscures the underlying facts, as Kagro makes abundantly clear:
- Private contractors were conducting torture
- It was torture for political gain
- Pollsters should be asking if Americans support using torture to extract false confessions for political purposes, because that's what happened
There were no "ticking time bombs" -- as former State Department official Lawrence Wilkerson and McClatchey have confirmed, torture was conducted to extract false evidence linking Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda. It was ordered by Dick Cheney and George Bush just as it was during the Spanish Inquisition, to force political compliance.
The Washington Examiner's Chris Stirewalt objects when Kagro invokes the obvious parallel, shamelessly hiding behind the military when he says "On behalf of American soldiers, on behalf of American soldiers, that's not cool." In classic Yellow Elephant fashion, Stirewalt apparently never served in the military.
You know what else is not cool, Chris? Invoking some quasi-patriotic symbol to obfuscate over what should be patently obvious to even mouth-breathing Republican apologists like you: Torturing people is a crime against humanity. Torturing people for political gain is an even more despicable crime against humanity. It doesn't matter who commits it: Spain, the Catholic Church, Japan or Dick Cheney. It is a crime. And you are an apologist for it.
Jane has started a Facebook group: I Oppose Torture and Kagro X Is My Hero.
It's for people who don't see much "reality based" discussion of the subject of torture on cable news, and want to see David Waldman on TV every day.
Personally, I would LOVE to have someone like David Waldman on every day instead of the pathetic bunch we have now.
A closing note on Erica Williams of Center for American Progress. Her statement
The American people right now are actually not interested in this sideshow and this discussion. The American people are interested in looking forward -- nobody is concerned anymore with what the Bush administration was doing and did. We decided it was torture. Conservatives may or may not disagree. None of that matters at this point and time.
had me rushing to the Google to make sure that CAP was actually the organization I thought it was, instead of some sound-alike astroturf right-wing organization, so shocked was I to hear her say what she did. However, I'm happy to see that Erica herself has issued a mea culpa for what appeared to be a demonic possession of her brain. David is equally as relieved.
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of 'not cool?' You, presumptuously assuming the mantle of the arbiter of 'cool.'
Did you know that torture was used to obtain information on which the 911 commission based its investigation? I just found that out.
So if torture was used to get us into Iraq under false pretenses, what does that say about the 911 commission's conclusions?
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/5/16/7...
Interesting info from the deputy counsel to the 911 commission.
It means it was nothing more than a dog and pony show ... they had no intentions of getting to the bottom of 911 ... they just wanted to appease the sleeping public while those really responsible ... PNAC ... are given impunity by the corporate politicians and extremely corrupt DOJ ... it's quite sad when the people turn a blind eye to the fact that the elite will take as many of the "peons" lives as necessary to further their agenda of a NWO. Hell they believe they have a god given right to control the lives of the "peons" however they see fit. Killing over 3000 or tens of thousands of "peons" doesn't bother them in the least. Torturing "peons" to further an agenda is a non issue for them.
How they've got their "9-11 Mastermind" Confession . Hammering his balls...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Sheikh_Mo...
In March 2007, after four years in captivity, including six months of detention at Guantanamo Bay, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed — as it was claimed by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal Hearing[8] in Guantanamo Bay — confessed to masterminding the September 11, 2001 attacks, the Richard Reid shoe bombing attempt to blow up an airliner over the Atlantic Ocean, the Bali nightclub bombing in Indonesia, the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and various foiled attacks.[9]
On December 8, 2008, Mohammed and four co-defendants sent a note to the military judge expressing their desire to confess and plead guilty.[10]
NOTE: He also confessed of killing ELVIS
The whole picture of the creation and evolution of PNAC:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3776...
This is a clip from an old Star Trek episode. The clip suggests similarities between what happened to them in this particular episode and the events of 9/11:
It's really trippy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CyjD6Ulf6s
Here's my star trek link to you abby,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uxTpyCdriY
;}
http://twilightpines.com//index.php?option=co...
I'm basically an agnostic about everything - I'm a radical, so I figure we live in a web of manufactured BS & I refuse to buy into any of it. I don't buy the Bush Admin. spin about what happened on September 11, 2001. I don't buy into any particular alternate explanation, I just know that our government is lying about it.
So, here's my wild speculation:
1. The whole world knows that America tortured prisoners & committed war crimes. This is now undeniable fact based on photos, videos, transcripts, testimony of participants as well as both leaked & officially declassified documents.
2. Most of what has been revealed by the Obama Administration or anti-Cheney Bushies is confirmation of what has been suspected, not new information.
3. Cheney, et al. have no reason to mount such a desperate defense over what's already known, because it's clear there's no appetite in D.C. for a real investigation, let alone prosecution.
4. Cheney is creating a smokescreen to cover something else; something(s) dating to BEFORE the Iraq War & most likely events linked to Sept. 11, 2001. This is what would draw the coward out of his bunker to do the Sith Lord routine.
What is the something else that Cheney is trying to disguise? I don't pretend to know, but I think it could be anything from the worst Alex Jones scenario (such as Cheney allowed Sept. 11 to happen), to something horrifying, yet more within the American ability to cope (e.g. Cheney ordered the shoot-down of Flight 93 & it was carried out).
One way or another, Obama is allowing himself to become complicit in whatever it is that Cheney is trying to hide. Since the President knows history & the law and doesn't strike me as particularly gullible or incurious like G.W., I cannot help but speculate as to why he's going along with business as usual.
...is that we know we don't know the truth.
http://www.historycommons.org/project.jsp?pro...
Use the above linklook into what happened at NORAD that morning, and last minute absence of people in the chain of command.
Rumsfeld, that summer, changed the protocol for errant flights and interceptors. BTW, WTF was he doing during the early hours of the event and after the pentagon was hit? How the hell was the pentagon even allowed to be hit?
The more you dig into the minutiae of the event, the more it looks like an inside job with Cheney at the center. If you are into minutiae, google Norm Mineta + PEOC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Mineta
But the more you dig into the minutiae of the event, the more it looks like an inside job with Cheney at the center. If you are into minutiae, google Norm Mineta + PEOC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Mineta
BTW, if flight 93 was shot down, maybe it was because the passengers fought back and the "hijackers" had lost control of the flight.
guess who took complete control over norad
on 9/11, for the fist time in history,
a president, or a vice president took control over
Norad, and was running war games that morning...
evidence needed?
here...click on this:
http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/cheney_s_secre...
and when it says page migrating, click on
"click here to go to old site"
you lots of his little secrets...
Dave W. made their heads explode. Dey blowed up real good.
Rarely do we get to see one person completely destroy 3 others arguments so completely. David Waldman, good job.
using his slave name.
Obviously, by the lack of outrage, most Americans could really care less about torture as long as it isn't done to them. Where was the outrage over the entire Cuba ordeal? How about the overthrow in Iran? South America? Haiti? Laos? Cambodia? Korea? There is/was none until US soldiers get killed. Deep down Americans really don't care as long as it isn't them.
British do to you when we failed to liberate your part of the colonies.
...you are understating the importance of how media in this country controls the debate. Most people in this country don't even know that we caused a democratically elected government in Iran to be overthrown by the Shah. Certainly there is also a lot of selfishness, but that is also a result of media conditioning. Basically, too many Americans are too lazy to find the truth about what we, as a country, have done and continue to do to fuck up the rest of the world in the name of capitalism. Maybe if our media wasn't corporate-owned and the truth was in our faces every night, you might just see the outrage.
Meanwhile, the media will continue to sow the seeds of content, and the outrage that many of us do feel will go unnoticed.
Do you suppose are free to "Leave the Reservation" (APPROVED textbooks) and allow students to read, say, Howard Zinn's "People's History of the United States"?
I doubt that very many are.
This is where the trouble is starting in my opinion. From the time young adults can think they are spoon-fed propagandistic pablum and they continue to regurgitate it the rest of their lives.
At least I found a bit of a "sea change" when I went to college. At Ohio University in the early 70's the buzz on campus was that we were being taught HOW to think...not WHAT to think.
Too bad so few in this country go on to college.
How the United States,
was led to war..
http://www.leadingtowar.com/mechanism_war_man...
the champion of generalizing weighs in on this debate.
Hoser, you don't know a damn thing about what anyone thinks.
What have you Canadians done lately????
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%27s_role_...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_I...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter...
... I'm incline to agree ... most americans are asleep at the wheel and the elite goes way out of their way to make sure they remain asleep at the wheel ... that's why five corporations control what we hear and see ... and they make damn sure we see and hear only the things they want us to see and hear ...
Regarding the latest Bilderberger meeting and what they're currently up to:
http://www.************.com/bilderberg-fears-...
but what IF...there were a ticking time bomb in a shipping container in NY harbor.
To we want verification to be in the form of a mushroom cloud?
ooooh...snarkety snark...snark..snark...snarkety snarkety snaaaaark
Batocchio literally writes the book on the torture debate.
How can that foolish lady say the American people do not care what the Bush administration did!!@@# We supposedly want to look forward. HA! I can not believe that this fool is saying these words that incriminate good Americans.
... was a little whacked in the head ... the notion that letting sleeping dogs lie is a good thing is beyond my comprehension ... the spin in the corporate media is sickening. But like I said ... 5 corporations decided what we see and hear ... and they only what us to hear the spin ... and pretend the facts are for the foolish.
When the loudest mouth wins the debate, it isn't one. Dave W. had a strong argument but, as with many on these cable yell shows, he took it too far. When he postulated that the Count Cheney tortures were the worst since the Spanish Inquisition, he opened up a strawman argument for the others to pounce upon. Comparing it to the SI was not germane to his argument. He should have stuck to evidence that McClatchy has reported that shows what Cheney was doing. Instead it became a shouting match about how Cheney wasn't as bad as the SI.
his reasoning was that torturing people is a horrible crime, but torturing them to force confessions that will "prove" something you lied about was *unlike* the reason for the SI and is *orders of magnitude worse* -- the reason for torture is entirely different and far more
evilcontemptible....to me it was further evidence that the right has no argument so they latch on to the SI reference and try to argue that point instead.
Put another way, they're just fucking losers who don't know how to debate.
I think he threw that out there on purpose.
I was thinking the same thing: he should have just stuck to the McClatchy reporting and not start a whole "who's torturing is worse that who's" argument.
Distilling the issue to the important points and shoving it no holds barred in these apologists, liars faces. Have some and come back for seconds you pieces of shit!
I care very much- enough, in fact that I would support removal of ALL politicos who supported these acts of torture regardless of their party affiliations.
Bush threw out our rights and Obama is throwing out the rule of law. What'll we have left?
Well said! And I wholeheartedly agree.
Everyone that was in the Congress during the torture years is implicated...either by action or inaction.
I say throw em all out and send a message.
THAT is what "take back the country" means.
...there were voices of dissent in congress and they were known. Kucinich and Feingold come to mind, but there were other true progessives who never went along with any of the shit Bush was spewing.
Thanks.
I voted for Obama and would support a Dem over a Rep in nearly any fight- BUT liars and crooks know no party.
We need to step back from this and make damn sure that everyone tainted by this is tossed in prison or at least out of politics.
If it really does threaten to destroy the Dem party or costs them some elections then so be it. It'll be a stronger party for it and we'll be a far freer country if and when we let BOTH parties know we won't tolerate war crimes from anyone.
Yes- let us all take back this country.
Isn't that what elections are for? If the politicians won't police themselves, we need better politicians. More Democratic politicians is nice, better Democratic politicians is better. We have 59 seats in the Senate (soon to be 60), but how many truly progressive Senators do we have? While the Rebublicans are weeding out any opposition to their christianist base, it doesn't make their party stronger. We need more primary challenges to those blue dogs and Arlen Specter, so that when we elect a really progressive president he will have a caucus in place to support him.
..off the table.
Did Erica Williams say "nobody is concerned anymore with what the Bush administration was doing and did."?
I beg to differ with you on that one. I would say there are people across this nation who want to see Bushco. be tried for their crimes against humanity.
If we are to be taken seriously as a nation we need to investigate and the people who are not concerned about the Bush crimes are the same people who helped give Bush a second term because they don't care enough to know what is being done in their names.
Forward!
.
.
Into the past.
Agree - if we do not go after the criminals, we're just passing along another problem for our children to have to deal with in the future. This problem, in particular, I wouldn't wish even on the children of the people who are guilty.
She got flustered. She issued a very nice mea culpa.
thank goodness because I could not believe what I heard came from a progressive's POV.
that maybe being against criminal actions and prosecuting them is where she stands now?
But why the dickens did she make the statement in the first place? THAT's what I don't understand. She obviously knew what was being discussed.
Even if she issued a mea culpa, she's gone down in my estimation for saying it at all. She tried several times to get enough attention to make that point, so it wasn't exactly an impulse.
You knew it had to happen, dincha?
the fact remains that it's still torture and still illegal and still punishable by prison no matter even IF all the claims the torture apologists make were true. And that's because the use of torture is a very grave national security threat no matter the justification. That is why Commander of the Continental Army General George Washington expressly forbade it, he knew damn good and well he would lose the War of Independence if he resorted to the use of war crimes.
The punishment is actually death- not prison.
.
in which they have ever been engaged.
Many of them are proud of the fact.
You cannot slander the honor of Murka's military. It's been compromised for a couple of centuries at least, the efforts of the world's foremost propagandists to elide those facts notwithstanding...
Gen. McChrystal to head operations in Afghanistan.
Apparently he was Cheney's go to guy on torture.
Why would Obama want a man like this to be in charge now???:
http://www.alternet.org/story/140068
Did we Americans torture people looking for a justification to invade Iraq?
I don't care what the polls say or who was involved either; the law is not a matter of opinion. Torture is against domestic and international law. Period, end of story.
It is striking how many people don't want to know about our use of torture, but also think it is justified.
The ever insulting influence of the superficial viewpoints of the military-industrial complex is so striking. Trying ever so desperately and endlessly to control the opinions of the people and those in power, so that we too will be Americans that are stupid enough to shoot first and not ask questions at all, accept those questions with answers we hope to hear gurgled through the voice box of some water suffocating prisoner.
The Blue Sky Tribe has not left the building......but they do want you to hate somebody.
to invade Iraq?
Yup...many
How brave of us.
Especially when innocent civilians are murdered by the push of a video game button hundreds of miles away.
Waldman says: "This is probably the most horrific torture story since the Spanish Inquisition..."
I know nothing about Stirewalt (and I don't think much of his sartorial choices), but that is the statement he objected to and it is easy to attack it as a gross overstatement. Waterboarding is torture, but I've heard nothing yet about US questioning techniques (or torture techniques) that make me think they are the "worst since the Spanish Inquisition."
Adding the word "story" muddies the waters a bit without necessarily contributing anything worthwhile to the discussion. As for Stirewalt speaking "on behalf of American soldiers, that seems inappropriate, unnecessary, and pointless. All he needed to do was point out that there have surely been "more horrific" cases of torture since the Spanish Inquisition than the waterboarding that the US has engaged in. I don't see how that alters the overall discussion, except I would prefer my side of the argument to eschew hyperbole, stick to facts, and make the case in a thoughtful, rational way.
The problem with the use of hyperbole is that it tends to divert attention from the real issues to the relatively unimportant side issue of whether or not someone is exaggerating.
What was outrageous was that the torture was apparently being used for political purposes to extract "evidence" that could be used to support the administration's bogus case. I agree that is horrific, but if that is what Waldman meant, he should have been clear that it wasn't the extent of the torture that was so horrific, but the purpose of the torture.
Note: It's probably pointless to get into a discussion about which torture is worse. For example, would you rather be waterboarded or have your fingernails pulled off? Once it's torture, it's illegal, horrific, and those committing the acts are criminals who should be held accountable, by which I mean long prison sentences.
I agree somewhat, but what was interesting is that the rebuttal is formed out of the opinion that what Cheney ordered and the Spanish waterboarding were the same.
Also, I think David's point is that the REASON that Cheney's cabal used torture (political purposes; to form a lie to provide cover for invasion of Iraq after the fact) is so egregious.
...was denied access.
Note 2: I listened to the clip again, and I think Waldman did a reasonably good job of specifying what made this torture so horrific. The problem was Stirewalt was already speaking. If Waldman had simply phrased his original statement a little more carefully, he wouldn't have given the pinhead the opening he needed to go off on a tangent. That's one of the problems with this kind of format -- it too often degenerates into two or more people speaking (or shouting) at the same time.
I think Waldman's actual point -- that using torture for political purposes in the way Bush/Cheney did is truly horrific -- is valid. Still, torture is always illegal, no matter what its purpose.
he was not talking about the "degree" of torture or the number of people tortured but rather the reason for it. To insist that people be tortured to extract "confessions" that would justify your lying is another evil placed on the evil of authorizing and calling for torture of those individuals. I'm sure that's why he said it was worse than the Spanish Inquisition -- he kept repeating it when that other guy brought it up. I clearly understood what he was saying.
...you'll see that I agree. My original point, and I stand by it, is that it is important to frame arguments very carefully so that you don't give the idiots an opening to go off on a tangent.
Sure, they'll go anyway, but it is better to make it harder for them. In this case, Waldman made it fairly easy. Then, it was necessary to keep clarifying his point while Stirewalt was talking.
My guess is that any Right Wingers watching this clip would have the same response you had -- they understood clearly what he (in their case the "he" would be Mr. Bowtie Fop) was saying and they agreed completely. There really is almost no meaningful dialog left in this country. I place most of the blame for that on the Wingers, because they are, for the most part, just plain insane.
Thanx, ohreally. Great post, sums up my feelings perfectly.
He's absolutely right. This is a discussion nobody in the news media wants to have. They don't want the truth, they simply want the "he said, she said" bickering and the Pelosi non-issue. It's difficult to accuse a former president and vice-president of illegal, immoral acts, I get that, but where is the fourth estate? Where is the wall between government and the press? It's gone. I assure you this guy isn't going to get many more invitations to appear on TV. He's unwilling to accept the "conventional wisdom," and that can't be allowed, especially for a liberal.
Exactly right abount the news media. That's why we are now moving to a WEB based news organization. The corporations have hijacked the news for too long.
for political gain isn't suprising. The Iraq invasion and war was for political gain. It was supposed to show the world what could be done if the right party was in power in America. It was supposed to vanquish the Democrats to the dustbin of history.
I also like how Repubs all of a sudden embrace political correctness, calling torture "enhanced interrogation".
Changing the name of "Blackwater Inc.' to "XE".
Okay.....
That makes all the murders just...go away......
The response that KagroX's assertion provoked were so typical of people who don't want the truth.
1. What does that have to do with anything?
2. No one cares.
3. Who are you to question the integrity of XYZ?
None of these is adequate to prevent an inquiry into the truth.
╔╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╦╗
╠◀ ABORT THE BLUE SKY TRIBE PROPAGANDA MACHINE ▶╣
╚╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╝
about illegal Bush policies are a complete waste of time. Especially ones on cable tv. There will always be people who attempt to justify it using any number of reasons. The only way to deal with this issue is in a court of law. I give David a lot of props for sticking to his guns but government sanctioned torture for ANY reason is illegal. If the Obama DOJ does not appoint a Special Prosecutor to investigate this matter we, as a country, will be forever changed.
completely.
We MUST have a Special Prosecutor.
Too many Congress persons are potentially culpable. They cannot be expected to investigate themselves objectively. Plus it's too tight a club. Too many Republicans and Democrats in cahoots I think. I think they all realize that BOTH parties stand to go down in flames on this one.
What you said!
Sure, like Fitzgerald was such a success!!! The Oligarchy will 'fix' the Sp. Prosecutor, too, just like Fitzgerald.
Please explain how you are able to speak on behalf of American soldiers when a) you never were one; b) you do not legally represent American soldiers; and c) you have not been hired by the pentagon or a veterans' association to speak for them.
the election in November? Why are the Republicans able to control the debate and make it about Nancy Pelosi? It should be clear the GOP has mastered the technique of the "big lie" and is able to engage the "right-wing smear machine" at a moment's notice. The fix is in...from Drudge to Fox to the major newspapers and networks, they all follow the GOP lead hook line and sinker. Pelosi and Reid are wimps and deserve what they get. It's time for Democrats to demand strong leadershiop who are able to stand up to Gingrich, Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck and Palin!
Because they own the media?
n/t
The media is only as liberal as the giant corporations that own it.
the elite own the media ... and the corporate politicians are their puppets ...
Atwater 101:
Because the know how to stick together.
Their offensives are well timed & coordinated.
They understand how to attack their opponents with their own strengths.
They excel at disseminating disinformation.
They never concede.
... the elite did ... they got a man in office that is just like bush only a much more elegant liar. ... as long as corporations and the elite control the government and the elections we the people don't have much hope ... at least from my POV
A cynical electorate is the mission of the Blue Sky Tribe. Reduce the amount of voters by disenfranchising them.
It’s simple process:
Create a grotesquely distorted caricature, broadcast the delusion at the top of your lungs, and hope that you manage to reinforce just enough cynicism and hopelessness to ensure the election of someone who truly cares only for funneling all of the country's wealth and power into the hands of a tiny, corrupt elite.
O-bought-ma is indeed a tool for the Oligarchy. Stop listening to propaganda and just look at what he's done. Not too damn much, and what has happened, is bullshit. Bailing out WALLSTREETBANKSTERS!!!
Kagro X speaks truth. Spread it far and wide.
This "torture debate" in the US has devolved into TV ratings and no substance. Pathetic.
America tortured people for its own political and financial gain. End of story. Once that doro is opened, there's no telling where it will be used NEXT. Can you live with that?
"What does that have to do with the degree of torture you're talking about?" - Chris Stirewalt
There aren't degrees of torture. Once you've crossed the line (which is closer than you think), torture is torture.
I find telling the truth about war criminals and their crimes to be WAY COOL.
The fellow makes a great argument and does it respectfully, unlike the other losers.
The MSM has no idea how to deal with this story. They better learn fast because cheney committed war crimes. The MSM can fall over that one, so they better smarten up! No more crappy 'situation room' full of republican puppets.
Private contractors were conducting torture
And so were/are members of the US military, members of the CIA, US military medical personnel, etc. This wasn't just the result of evil privatization (in this case, mercenaries). Don't try to pretend that the hands of the sacred "troops" and the holy US military are clean of this. They're not.
The most forceful presentation I have heard, from anyone, against torture is being made by Jesse Ventura.
He is making the rounds of the talk shows and not mincing words.
There isn't a single politician, in either party, who is speaking with such clarity and integrity.
I would encourage anyone interested in this debate to watch the Bill Moyers Journal episode with Bruce Fein who has been speaking out in favor of prosecution of lawbreaking officials for a while now. This is one of the best interviews I've seen or heard on the subject.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/archives/ar...
Will listen to it.
Thank you so much for posting this. The way the cons have reframed the "debate" is disgusting. The way that the liberals have let them reshape the "debate" is even more disgusting.
Yet again the Racist Nazi Party (RNC) its' supporters and apologist trty to weave Fairy Tail. HEY Idiots on the right you are COWARDS and the NEXT attack is going to be engineered by YHOUR party. You TORTURED for Political Reasons to justify going into Iraq.
All the senseless American Soldier deaths are on ytour hands, you twisters of truth LIARS HATE MONGERS. TRAITORS.
I am taking my oldest grand children to the State Capitol and pointing out to them what wolves in sheep clothing look like and to giver strong emphasis to what TRAITORS and their Party Looks like.
So true.
.
..the other night, my wife and I got Chinese take-out. The Fortune Cookie was priceless and I intend to share:
Human Rights: Know Them, Demand Them, Defend Them
Nothing else
to prosecuting these war criminals the more these ass-bags try to defend the war criminals and attempt to shift the blame to the dems.
It is far past time for the dems to grow some balls for American and say enough is enough. Start the investigation process, which will be short, and put out all evidence regarding who, what, when and where.
Americans will start to wake up and the rest of the world will start coming back to us. What they are doing is a disgrace and a slap in the face to the US citizens(Except for the dim-witted, inbred red necks that are the rethug base).
Erica Williams needs to find a new job!!! Mea culpa of no mea culpa. What she said is something right out of Liz Cheney's mouth.
Do not lose sight about what this guy is talking about - Torture to advance a political agenda!! Torture to get somebody to say that al Qaeda and Iraq/Saddam were in bed together after, AFTER!!, Cheney KNEW that they were not in bed together. Cheney only wanted to get somebody to say it so that Cheney could use it as another false excuse to go to war with Iraq. Do not lose sight of that.
To waterboard any asshole that says pouring a little water in someones face is not torture.
Who was the coward with the bowtie?
I am ashamed of the lies and ignorance put on the airways but more ashamed of people like the bowtie coward.
These people need a little perspective a little experience in the subject matter they are perporting to be experts in.
Lets set up and give a little free waterboarding to anyone that thinks it is not torture.
Just last week a guy made the comment to me that pouring a little water in someones face was not torture.
To which I said let me waterboard you and then tell me it's not torture! If you live through it. He would not take me up on it.
They don't really believe what they say. They only say it because they have listen to others say it.
Never mind that some that originally agreed with them tried it and said it's torture. They would rather believe a lie, then admit they are stupid!
ditto ditto
and especially when the person only focuses on the least offense, i.e. declaring this the worst offense since the inquisition.
blather blather blather
harump harump harump
For once, I would like the MSM to connect the truth about how we came to the war in Iraq. AfterDowningStreet.org had it right since the beginning of this war. You see, in our media, we need to look over what is not being said. Instead of asking for answers to the facts as they unfold, we take a quick gauge of who has the strongest argument, make our choice or side, and then race to articulate it better the "other side."
What David Waldman referred to was the number one defense reaction of the Bush administration: Reduce every crime they committed to debate. Yes, if you can make it and argument between "us" and "them," the politician, the public and the media can run their now polished form of partisan debate. I hope it is time to "connect the dots."
We need to check our intentions to address important political matters. We should always have resolve. In this country, we sometimes honor the right to express our selves to a fault. Included in this commonly used reminder should be don't get stuck in the argument; instead, move to the next step.
Joseph
do you folks remember all the
fear stories that came out prior the war?
bush and his mushroom cloud....weapons of mass destruction..
yellow cake uranium from niger..
just like this:
http://www.leadingtowar.com/mechanism_war_man...
the republican party must love them if erica williams is their rep.
let's sweep everything under the rug and look forward.
move along people, nothing to see.
and you know what, this really does look like a bunch of bloggers battling each other on the keyboards, which is no worse than what the usual pundits do.
Others have made this same point, but it's worth restating.
Waldman was doing an beautiful job of making his case when out of nowhere he laid down that big stinker that "this is probably the most horrific torture story since the Spanish Inquisition." After that, that's all the conservatives wanted to talk about.
This is a very common rhetorical mistake. You're building your argument, you're lucid, you're eloquent, and then you take it one step too far or you make a statement that is outside the scope of your argument, and that's the last you'll see of your main points.
Always, always resist the temptation to take it too far, and if you do, acknowledge your mistake and get back to the points that matter.
People were tortured in the witch scares until they "confessed" to using black magic to summon hailstorms to destroy their neighbors' crops and livestock. The favored method: water torture. In colonial Virginia Grace Sherwood was dunked head first into the Lynnhaven River until she "confessed". Why were the authorities so hell bent on getting these "confessions"? Because a person who confessed to witchcraft could be killed and their property taken away.
Why were people tortured by the Cheney-Bush Junta? To get people to "confess" to things that were not true and to provide a thrill for sadists.
Salem Witch Trials, Spanish Inquisition, Japanese internment camps... It doesn't matter. At least not in the context of the case Waldman was making.
You and Waldman may be right. Maybe this IS in the same class as those other chapters in history, but it's unnecessary to Waldman's overall point, and, in fact, all it does is distract from it. Notice how the conversation goes from the charge of torture for political confession (his real point) to whether or not this compares to the Spanish Inquisition.
It reminds me of an old football blooper where this guy intercepts a pass and runs it back 90 yards, but just before he crosses the goal line, he starts his celebration dance, drops the football, and it gets recovered by the other team. He had it. He blew it.
Keep your mind on the goal in front of you.
My god, someone actually talking on TV about what is really happening instead of these bullshit doomsday scenarios.
He spoke an unvarnished truth to the American People devoid of all the talking points (well, except the Spanish Inquisition). The MSM is just as guilty as Bush and Cheney for all this shit. I highly respect him for his conviction.
David Waldman probably won't be invited back.
Jesse Ventura bodyslams an ignorant yenta on The View:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/18/vent...
You won't need judges because torture will always give full confessions. No prosecutors or defense lawyers. If there is a crime unsolved. Simply abduct someone and torture a confession out of them. Then execute them for the crime they confessed to. Crime solved and case closed.
How about some appearances on Maddow and Olberman? And not be interrupted by thugs.
Reslugs just can't handle the truth, so they change the subject to some assinine story about hurting the troops, which they hate anyway.
Just plain stupid and absolutely shows why the Reslugs are a dying party.
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