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Nate Silver has written a piece called "Why Progressives Are Batshit Crazy To Oppose the Senate Bill." He says we need to stop being "polite" (who's polite these days?) and start being "real." In the spirit of impoliteness and reality (realness?), he offers some numbers in order to argue that the Left is nuts not to embrace the Senate health reform bill.

In that same "no-politeness" spirit, here's my response: Garbage in, garbage out. Is that "real" enough for ya? Progressives - and everyone else, for that matter - should keep fighting.

Silver's heart may be in the right place, and his math is right, but many of his assumptions are flat-out wrong. More importantly, he fails to place his work in the proper human and political context. It's like this: You can build the best model in the world for predicting the outcome of hockey games. But if you knew that sometime during the third period Rahm Emanuel was going to drive out on the ice in a Zamboni and flatten your team's entire defense, wouldn't that change your model a little? And if you knew half the hockey players would wind up bleeding and broken ... (Oh, wait - they do. Bad example.)

Progressives would be insane to do as Silver suggests. He tells us that "a picture's worth a thousand words" (and then gives us 1,795 words - but who's counting). Let's review both his analysis and his conclusions.

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Assumptions

A number of Silver's assumptions are questionable. First, I think his assumed inflation is understated. (I've got a lengthier version of this post up which deconstructs his numbers in greater detail; that part starts here.)And he says that money to pay for helping lower-income people comes "substantially from corporations and high-income earners, plus some efficiency gains." The first part of the statement is essentially true for the House bill, but not the Senate's - and it's the Senate bill Silver's defending. As we've shown, the Senate bill's excise tax will pretty much indiscriminately affect working people, and not because they have rich benefits. (See conflict-of-interest statement below.)

What's more, all Americans are being mandated to buy into private insurance in order to make it actuarially easier to cover everyone, without a public option. That really a kind of invisible tax that's being charged to everyone in the form of premiums - premiums which are made higher by the absence of a public option. On top of that, the Senate's weak employer mandate will force more people into the costlier individual market. And "efficiency gains"? What efficiency gains? Every difficult cost containment decision has been kicked down the road in this bill.

Darcy Burner is absolutely right when she writes "affordable coverage for everyone: FAIL." Silver is absolutely wrong when he says that "we can debate whether $9,000 is 'affordable' for a family of four earning $54,000" - we can? Really? - or when he says the individual mandate penalty is "not very harsh." I'm astonished that anyone grounded in the real world could believe that these numbers (and those for higher middle-class earners) are not "harsh," unaffordable, and even potentially devastating for middle-class people trying to get by in this economy. That's craziness of the flying-rodent-feces variety.

It's all about context

Silver is most off-base in the area that arguably matter most in the long run: political context, strategy and tactic. He falls right into the trap that the Democratic leadership has set for progressives - the belief that, even with weeks to go in the process, it's either this bill or nothing. That's simply not the case. Yes, I saw a previous post where he argued that this outcome was inevitable given Senate math. But it's only inevitable if you assume a) no targeted use of reconciliation, and b) that the "centrist" Senators were inevitably going to be opposed to a bill with better provisions. To believe that, you also have to assume continued lack of strong leadership from Reid and the White House, together with continued lack of progressive pressure on them to step up.

Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me.

The Senate bill Silver so admires places enormous burdens on middle-class families, while going easy on high-earners and employers. The overall combination of mandates and weak cost controls shapes up to be political suicide for Democrats. It will hurt Democratic candidates in precisely those parts of the country where they can least afford the damage, like the Midwest. (This survey offers a preview.) And it's not too late to fix it.

That gets us to strategy. The day may come when the Silver argument needs to be deployed - namely, when a decision must be made on whether the final bill being voted onbetter than nothing. But that day isn't here yet. There's still time to change it, either in the Senate or House. Instead of accepting this bill as the best they can get, progressives should keep the heat on the Democratic leadership to fix it. That means eliminating the excise tax in favor of the House high-earner proposal, pressing for a robust public option, and pushing for stronger subsidies.

Doing anything else would be crazy.

________________________

(Disclaimer: I'm currently campaigning to ensure that the excise tax does not become law, which could fairly be considered a conflict of interest. I would point out, however, that I'm campaigning because I think the tax a bad idea;I don't think it's a bad idea because I'm campaigning.)

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101 Comments
Handypants's picture

Nate is right as rain.

IMHO


"I know that there are people who do not love their fellow
man, and I hate people like that!
" ~ Tom Lehrer (1928 - )

Tell Joe Lieberman we demand a single payer public option.

http://www.change.org/actions/view/we_demand_...

Old Billy's picture

I like Nate, and I was somewhat pleased when I read this post yesterday. But I'm just not buying it anymore.

There are huge loopholes in the insurance regulations that require coverage for pre-existing conditions (they can raise prices a "reasonable" amount based on pre-existing conditions), and I don't think the 90% requirement toward services is in there either.

Yet, the mandate that people buy insurance is still in it. There are subsidies, but no cost control mechanisms - meaning, thanks to idiots like Lieberman, it will end up costing us even more. It's a cost-plus contract - it's the kind of thing you'd expect from Tom Delay and George W. Fucking Bush.

The only thing this bill will do, if passed, is ensure that the Democratic party will have no authority to lead on future health care reform (which will still be needed), and ensure that for-profit insurance companies will be profitable for many, many more years.

It's a bad bill and needs to be taken out back and shot.

Obama and Rahm can go triangulate each other if they think this is the best they can do. 70-80% of Americans would go for single-payer right now if Obama would sack-up and lead. He can either deliver to the people that got him elected, i.e. the ground game - as in progressive activists, or he can continue to suck up to the Liebermans and Nelsons and Blanche Lincolns. If he were to lose this fight over healthcare reform while championing a single-payer bill because Lieberman or Nelson joined a lockstep Republican fillibuster (which they should be forced to perform), I can guaran-damn-tee you I would canvas door-to-door in BF Idaho, and he would come back with 75 Democratic Senators in 2010.

How about you run those numbers, Nate?

...over the cliff. Dean's correct...this roach shit bill must die.

djtyg's picture
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LeftandLeft's picture
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djtyg's picture
[Comment Deleted By Administration For Violation Of Terms Of Service]
ricky's picture

continue. Speak for yourself. Give LeftandLeft his needed cyberspace. Sensitive commenters like myself always accomodate him.


"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter

Pointing out you are out of line is hardly a generalization.

If you are in that bad of a mood, maybe you should not be posting currently.

...a corporate dick licker is a goddamn generalization...can you fucking comprehend?

This continuous capitulation by the Democrats to Conservative lies is exactly why this party gets and deserves zero respect.

You people don't stand for shit, and this is why we are constantly marked down.

glamourdammerung's picture
[Comment Deleted By Administration For Violation Of Terms Of Service]
glamourdammerung's picture
[Comment Deleted By Administration For Violation Of Terms Of Service]
LeftandLeft's picture

And you must have a crystal ball looking into the future to know that Wednesday morning 12-16-2009 you were going have an argument with me that would determine whether you would donate to C&L or not.

Lol.

glamourdammerung's picture
[Comment Deleted By Administration For Violation Of Terms Of Service]

"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn

Alice X - Chomsky Nader's picture

White House as helpless victim on healthcare

From Russ Feingold:

This bill appears to be legislation that the president wanted in the first place…

Glenn Greenwald here

Alexander Bolton here

Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.), among the most vocal supporters of the public option, said it would be unfair to blame Lieberman for its apparent demise. Feingold said that responsibility ultimately rests with President Barack Obama and he could have insisted on a higher standard for the legislation.

“This bill appears to be legislation that the president wanted in the first place, so I don’t think focusing it on Lieberman really hits the truth,” said Feingold. “I think they could have been higher. I certainly think a stronger bill would have been better in every respect.”


statusquObama, change you can only pretend in

swami's picture

Get this bill off the table then start with the amendments to really come up with a consensus that bends the costs down. It i s huge pill to swallow that can be incrementally corrected and focused on

LeftandLeft's picture

"If rape is inevitable, just relax and enjoy it."

Basketball college coach and noted POS, Bobby Knight

coach in college if you don't count girls?


"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter

Sorry Eskow, Nate is right.

ps: your dribble sounded "batshit crazy".

Rascalcat's picture

I have certain people I trust on certain issues and Nate's my numbers guy.

I generally go with Howard on health care issues, but as someone who is uninsured with pre-existing conditions, I think anything is better than nothing, at this point.

That being said, if this administration does not do something for progressives in the very near future, the mid-terms are not going to go well for the Dems.

albabe's picture

Rascalcat:

And just how will this Bill specifically help you?

Can you afford Three Times the going Rate? And the Vaseline will cost you extra.


~albabe (The Writer/Artist Formally Known As Al Gordon)

http://www.comicon.com/gordon/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gordon

Peter G's picture

very few progressives read the comments on their own blogs. If they did they might notice that the people who most ardently self-identify as progressives are planning on bailing for the next election cycle. They are supremely disappointed about not getting everything they imagined when Obama was elected. Does anybody seriously think that there is time before 2010 for a do-over of the health care bill? What's going to change the political calculus that's degrading this bill? If you don't get some of the non-budget related reforms done now you won't get another chance for a generation. The Medicare expansion can always be done later in a bill subject to reconciliation. Silver is absolutely right.


Hasa Diga Eebowai

ron's picture

and I may agree with you.

Margaret's picture

Take out the mandate and it's a worthy bill and a step in the right direction. Pass this piece of crap with the mandate and all it is is welfare for the insurance companies, the same ones who are raping us now.


Barack Obama: Change we can only imagine

dbm's picture

What good will come from progressives bailing? Honestly, I'd like to know who'd they support. This type of action would weaken the Dems just like the wingnuts are fragmenting the repubs.

sciguy's picture

If only we progressives could find a way to form a viable third party to triangulate from the "left." Would the Democrats then side with the Republicans or would they join with us to get a real progressive agenda enacted?

If it is most likely they would side with the Republicans rather than work with us, I'm not sure what would happen. Would moderate folks become more progressive or would they blame us for our efforts? (I am sure that the right wing media would do their best to set up memes that allow them to tar and feather us in any case. We'd have to have effective counters to that in place from the start.)

In any case, it's hard to see the Dems really living up to the progressive rhetoric they routinely pretend to believe.

Brain Food's picture

"What's more, all Americans are being mandated to buy into private insurance in order to make it actuarially easier to cover everyone, without a public option."

More than that, it will make people without health insurance scared to go to the doctor or the emergency room if they need help. So yeah, it'll help those costs.

Abbybwood's picture

Would you care to elucidate on that last comment:

"More than that, it will make people without health insurance scared to go to the doctor or the emergency room if they need help. So yeah, it'll help those costs." - Brain Food

I hope you are not suggesting that if an American citizen is not in "compliance" with the mandate and that if that person/child has a sudden onset of chest pain, abdominal pain, gets in a horrific car crash etc. that they should be SCARED to seek medical attention???!!!!


"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn

Brain Food's picture

Chest pain...nawp. Lots of people already decide they'll "wait it out."(1) Abdominal pain? That's a hoot. Would you risk getting harassed and slapped with fines for gas pains? Count that out. Horrific car crash? Probably won't have a choice there, I'll give you that.

1) http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/...

priceofliberty's picture

I agree with Nate Silver on this. We have a chance to make some difference or we can keep things going as is. So if you want to continue opposing the health reform for not going far enough please remember what happened the last 2 times something like this was attempted -- nothing. Why nothing? because it was all or nothing and we got nothing.

Anyone that votes against a bill that will do some good even though it doesn't fix the situation votes with the insurance industry. They only way they win is if nothing is done.

Normally I agree with crooks and liars, but this time I don't. I think its foolish to proceed in opposing health reform just because it doesn't have everything you want.

Evet's picture

What reform?

priceofliberty's picture

I assumed that you listened to what my Senator said about this. Or did we turn on Franken too?

Evet's picture

"saw" this scam they are trying to pull off on the American public before it even became stage center.

Abbybwood's picture

Did you read what "Brain Food" said up top there??? Here's the quote:

"More than that, it will make people without health insurance scared to go to the doctor or the emergency room if they need help. So yeah, it'll help those costs." - Brain Food

I'd love to hear your comment (and others) on this tripe.


"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn

Brain Food's picture

Not sure what you're directing that at. Here's some light reading.

"So Ashlock stalked out of Woodhull Hospital without treatment, becoming part of a small but growing number of patients turning down emergency care because they fear they can’t afford it."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30628634/

Now add to that the threat of fines and who knows what other penalties will be imposed.

absolutely zero coverage. Medicare won't kick in for her for another 3 years, and she has too much money for Medicaid. She also takes ill (fainting, weakness, etc.) for days following a fall. The last time she had that kind of emergency, she had fainted, was laying on the bathroom floor, refusing my pleas to call an ambulance to take her to ER, because she can't afford it.

So it's not tripe to me, and I believe Brain Food when he/she says that some people will be afraid to seek help if they don't have insurance, and cannot afford to comply with this joke of a mandate.


I've never seen change without a fire

"They only way they win is if nothing is done."

actually, they win big with this bill. and the loopholes regarding pre-existing conditions and recision will likely allow them to continue abusing consumers for some time.

dean's right: kill it.

Dean's a MORON. Heeeeeeyawwwwwwww.


"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."

Rascalcat's picture

Dean is one of our finest progressives. Are you sure you are a liberal?

ricky's picture

don't you know the wagons are alredy circled and the true left is, as is preordained, prepared to fire inward?


"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter

taochiapet's picture

and liberal is a label only a moron would embrace these days, as meaningless as your post.

Evet's picture

Glad to see Dean standing up for the Truth this morning..

ronnie dobbs's picture

see, i can be bi-partisan.

Brain Food's picture

Wish I had written that.

Spacemeat's picture

Do you even know who Nate Silver is? The dude is one of the most insightful, accurate bloggers and statisticians around. I visit 538 all the dang time because it's so accurate, so in-depth. He may or may not be correct in this instance, but I think people don't realize or appreciate what his level-headed commentary adds to an otherwise inflammatory and juvenile discourse.

Blame for the utter destruction of this bill and reason why..

1) Harry Reid - the Democratic surrender monkey. Spineless, gutless and completely unqualified to lead. He was given a 60 vote majority. Instead of using that clear majority and control of the rules to bring either a single payer or public option healthcare vote to a simple majority vote shows his lack of credibiity, his lack of concern for the will of the American people, his lack of political acumen, his lack of honor and strenght to oppose the special interests and his total acceptance of being the GOP's bitch.

2) Nancy Pelosi - Ditto

3) Rahm Emanuel - The Clinton's lapdog. The Clinton's sold out to the special interests long ago. Rahm is their proxy, guiding the interests of the Clinton's through this entire process.

4) Joe Lieberman - He has NEVER intended to run for re-election. He KNOWS he can't win. That is why he is sucking hard on the dick of the insurance industry. His destruction of the healthcare bill is his last gift to the insurance companies, and will secure his cushy job as their lobbyist.

5) Howard Dean - a dolt. He cheerleaded the so-called "deal" with Lieberman in the hope of getting into the good graces of the Democratic leadership. He now looks like a total fool having been forced to now call for the Democrats to vote against their own legislation.

A complete batch of MORONS.


"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."

taochiapet's picture

immune from criticism?

And am amazed you found no blame for Obama. He is Rahm's boss after all.

Evet's picture

LOL . . thanks for the laugh

Rascalcat's picture

And possibly still asleep.

are the people who voted for anyone other than a Democrat.


"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter

taochiapet's picture

cuz he's black; so far he's not disappointed!

ricky's picture

and an intellectual half a loafer?


"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter

Alice X - Chomsky Nader's picture

I voted for one Democrat, my state Rep Alma Wheeler Smith who is far enough to the left to be all alone. There was a Republican who got about 20% of the vote which is typical.

That is the sort of little district we have here.

Other than that Socialist, Green and of course NADER.


statusquObama, change you can only pretend in

Peter G's picture

Hello from the socialists to your east.


Hasa Diga Eebowai

Alice X - Chomsky Nader's picture

statusquObama, change you can only pretend in

Peter G's picture

all the people to blame for not getting everything you want in one bill I'd like to know what the plan is for actually getting universal health care. I mean beyond declaring that everybody sucks and you're taking your marbles and going home.


Hasa Diga Eebowai

The plan is to BE DEMORATS.

Stop playing to the GOP's base, and play to your own. Working people, minorities...basically the MAJORITY of the country.


"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."

Oh...read the Constitution. Presidents set foreign policy. Domestic policy is the responsibility of the Congress.

The President has only a bully pulpit on domestic policy. Has the President vacilated on this. Yes. But the bottom line is that Congressional leadership on this has played politics with it, NOT supported their own President and are simply focused on presenting SOMETHING that they can claim victory on to get them through the midterms and not piss off the insurance industry.


"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."

Margaret's picture

Harry Reid.


Barack Obama: Change we can only imagine

Exactly.


"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."

Margaret's picture

I could add a lot more but the primary obstacle is ineffective leadership in the Senate and the fact that nobody outside the beltway can see what they are doing to themselves. Liberals aren't like conservatives. We don't vote based on the letter after their names. That is both our strength and our weakness.


Barack Obama: Change we can only imagine

saying here for many a week concerning Obama, they did not vote based on reading actual proposals either.


"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter

Margaret's picture

But I said "Liberals" not "Democrats"


Barack Obama: Change we can only imagine

ricky's picture

few of whom claim to be Democrats or liberals. They claim to be "progressives."
Because like the right, some of them think "liberal" is something to be ashamed of.


"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter

savannah43's picture

progressives, even though the terms are used interchangeably by many. Look it up. Most liberals have been co-opted by ennui. Bitch, bitch, bitch. Then nothing.

ricky's picture

But whoever in the Constitutional convention who thought
the House of Lords could be a fine addition to the American system gets my lasting enmity. I could even get profane if provoked.


"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter

Margaret's picture

Well said! I imagine it was one of those "compromises" to appease the wealthy and the powerful that plague us to this day!


Barack Obama: Change we can only imagine

Peter G's picture

actually their intention. It was their intention to prevent regional conflicts by ensuring that individual states had a say so that those states with large populations would not absolutely control or dominate the legislative process.


Hasa Diga Eebowai

The only Democrat that would have called out the GOP on their hypocrisy and given the Democrats a swift kick to the nuts on this issue...is DEAD.


"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."

ricky's picture

so some of the posters can provide links to prove he (or she) was a f&*kstick too.


"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter

Blah blah blah.

When you live for a bit longer, you'll learn about politics.


"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."

I can't wait for that day to come.


"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter

Oh...and I'm beyond draft age.

Good luck to you.

At least in the service you'll get healthcare.


"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."

ricky's picture

to use age as a means to belittle someone?
Or did you think I was doing that to you when I referred to your unnamed Democrat
as an "imaginary hero"?


"I mean Romney is the most conservative on illegal immigration and I don't think Ronald Reagan could get elected in California today."
Ann "Clipped" Coulter

I don't really care or pay attention to what you think.


"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."

Peter G's picture

that you bothered to comment would seem to suggest otherwise. Just saying.


Hasa Diga Eebowai

While I admit to posting comments in which I have my tongue firmly in cheek (and most people know the difference between my more serious posts, and those in which I try to enlist a little humor), I do find that some individuals in here simply look to get a rise out of folks with their comments.

I do however at times try to give them the benefit of the doubt and attempt to engage an intelligent conversation.

Sadly, that ofttimes simply doesn't work.


"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."

Peter G's picture

Since my tongue is so often in my cheek I often bite it.


Hasa Diga Eebowai

theWalrus's picture

Go read Glenn Greenwald today.

ron's picture

there are a whole lot of pissedoffpeople here today. Where's patricia?

Abbybwood's picture

with Martini and drinkin' a cup of joe.

Sounds like a good idea to me.


"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn

Peter G's picture

There doesn't appear to be a lot of clear thinking either. Then again, anger and clear thinking are usually mutually exclusive.


Hasa Diga Eebowai

savannah43's picture

should be turned outward, not inward. There are few politicians who have not been corrupted, and I don't care whose side they pretend to be on. When the bribes come, they take them. Did you hear that Weiner? This is what we need to get angry about, and then we need to fight back. Please spare me the drivel about the next election being our best weapon. That sentiment is beyond naive.

Margaret's picture

People are neither numbers, nor are they math.


Barack Obama: Change we can only imagine

theWalrus's picture

this isn't the final bill. More will be stripped out and each time we will be told: something is better than nothing!

savannah43's picture

The perfect example of a slippery slope.

Ron up there a few comments says to "take away the mandate and I may agree with you." The thing is that if there was a single payer the mandate would be baked in. Everybody would be paying something. Maybe it would be as much as the mandate maybe it wouldn't. The thing is that it has to be paid for somehow. I am for single payer.

ron's picture

but single payer is not anywhere to be seen in this bill.

That's because the Congress already has single payer for itself.


"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."

needed. Big difference from paying private insurance companies and letting them dole it out as they see fit.

It's time to start calling Congress again.

This time...EVERYONE...Republicans, Democrats, Independents, etc...DEMAND that the Congress go on the same healthcare plan as the rest of us.

You'll get universal healthcare in 2 days...TOPS.


"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."

Somewhere up there Liberal AND Proud said [Reid] was given a 60 vote majority. No, he was given LIEberman and 59 which included Nelson. I agree that Reid is a horrible leader (or so it seems from this side of the office door) but if you have a LIEberman in your total you cannot say you have 60 votes. LIEberman is a turd and a petty petty man.

You only need 51 votes. This whole "we need 60 votes" bullshit, is the political cover that Harry Reid used to justify taking it up the ass from the GOP.

If the Democrats can't pass a GOOD healthcare bill with this kind of a majority. it confirms that a) America will NEVER get a fair healthcare bill and b) the Democrat Party as Americans had known it no longer exists.


"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."

And for the record. I am no longer a registered Democrat.

Not that anyone here or in the Democratic Party cares.


"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."

savannah43's picture

has while in the minority. When the Dems were there, they could not accomplish anything. Now they're in the majority, and they can't accomplish anything. In other words, besides making pretty speeches, they've got nothing. They are almost, to a person, the same--corrupt, greedy, and devious. Let's face it and then we can deal with it.

Mutton Jeff's picture

The problem here isn't his analysis of who pays what -- it's that the freaking overall premium amount is waaay too high. The mandates are going to increase the risk pools, which should drive down the premium costs. Furthermore, if we HAD the public option, the competition would drive the premiums down even more.

The insurance companies are making out like bandits here....and the fact that the government is going to make up the difference out of our tax dollars is very cold comfort indeed.

the mandate, too. And punish noncompliance. If anyone thinks they can escape either the mandate or the fines and possible jail sentences for noncompliance, they are wrong. Even if one does not work (and thus have your premiums deducted from your pay like SS and Medicare) they will still find you and make you pay one way or the other. THINK about this.

Let me see if I understand this. If we don't pass the piece of drek that Obama and Reid have been secretly pushing, with Lieberman as the front man, then civilization as we know it screeches to a halt.

Then, with civilization screeched to a halt, Congress will fail to address the root cause for a generation. Yes, that makes perfect sense.

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