Clinton: Israel's Demolition Plans 'Unhelpful'
Did the U.S. Secretary of State actually criticize Israel? At a joint press conference with Mahmoud Abbas? That's new:
BRUSSELS, March 4 -- Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on Wednesday criticized the Israeli government for plans to demolish dozens of Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem, calling the actions "unhelpful" and a violation of international obligations.
Clinton made the rare public complaint about Israeli actions in response to a question at a joint news conference with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas in Ramallah, on the West Bank.
Israeli plans to destroy the homes in Arab East Jerusalem, which Palestinians consider the capital of a potential Palestinian state, have touched a nerve in Palestinian society.
The Jerusalem municipal government in recent weeks began planning to evict 1,500 residents and raze 88 homes in an area designated as a national park, on top of other demolition plans in the Silwan area. Israel says the homes were built without permits, but Palestinians say permits are impossible to obtain and that many of the homes were built before Israeli occupation in 1967.
"It is a matter of deep concern to those who are directly affected, but the ramifications go far beyond the individuals and families that have received the notices," Clinton said. "It will be taken up with the Israeli government."
Juan Cole warns that Clinton will be attacked by the far-right-wing Israel crowd, and urged people to support her speaking out - in fact, to urge her to use even stronger language the next time.
Now the "Clinton hates Jews" pundits will be all over this.
Obama = Death to israel.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
ricky = One Of The Most Dumb *sshole In America.
Snore. Why don't you buy Joe's new book? I'm sure it's rivetting reading.
Besides, Israel has gone rogue, so who cares?
far left loon >.<
Here's the link:
http://atheonews.blogspot.com/2009/03/israeli...
I'm sick with a bad cold.
Off to bed with some hot tea and Nyquil I am.
Have a nice night everyone....
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Get well. I'm just getting over one myself. Enjoy the rest.
Yeah Dershowitz will be on this like ugly on an Ape.
"To me, truth is not some vague, foggy notion. Truth is real. And,
at the same time, unreal. Fiction and fact and everything in between,
plus some things I can't remember, all rolled into one big "thing."
This is truth, to me. "
-Jack Handy
Or was Secretary of State Clinton shooting at the wrong target or not even on the right target range?
With this first visit to Middle East Secretary Clinton chose not to visit Gaza. Chose not to rebuke Israel over the recent brutal attack Israel unleashed on Gaza. Using American provided arms. Killing unarmed civilians and children.
The ongoing demolition by Israel in Jerusalem that Secretary Clinton remarked on as being "unhelpful" did not speak to what Israel is doing or intends to do across West Bank or in Gaza.
Secretary Clinton had bigger targets to go after on this visit.
That Secretary Clinton did not do so or chose not to do so and could only suggest Israel was being "unhelpful" fell or falls short of what she needed to say or where she needed to go with this visit to ME.
Clinton should also have said something about the terrorists in Fatah and SS-wannabes in Hamas.
For example, where was her condemnation of Hamas' renewed firing of rockets into Israel in violation of the recent truce and international law?
I think Sec. Clinton was FINALLY being realistic with little, bratty, arrogent, BLOODY ISRAEL. Heh!!! Zionists!, Grow the F**K UP AND GET OFF THE DOLE!!!!!
And, King Geo never had any real authority to not recognize Hamas, so, horse-pucky on that!!!!!!
Getting slammed as being 'anti-semitic' for criticism of the Israeli gov. is close to the top of my list of political peeves.
IMO, it's past time for somebody to point out the problems with Israel's actions and policies. But I am a fan of Rabbi Michael Lerner, who BTW, also posts at Huffington.
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples, promising liberty and justice for all
(snark) The worst kind of racist.(/snark)
Yours, mine, and a lot of folks. It is getting very irritating to hear that because I don't like what Israel is doing, I hate Jews. Israel is a country. I dislike the actions of a sovereign nation, not the citizens of that nation. You can, and should, be able to make that distinction without being labeled something you're not.
"I dislike the actions of a sovereign nation, not the citizens of that nation."
The two are not as easily seperable as you may wish to think. The citizens of a country elect their government, thus they bear responsibility too. It's this kind of disconnect that got America to where it is today.
[edit: 75% of the world would have gladly voted out the neocons, but we can't vote in your elections, and are usually told to "f#ck off" anyway.]
far left loon >.<
I always ask, "So are people who criticize the American government... like, reverse racists or something? Or do they hate all the races and ethnicities in out country? What about sexists, too?"
Fuck Israel. There, you have my permission to say whatever you want.
I predict this comment thread will get messy tonight. I hope not, but it seems everytime this general subject pops up, it often does. I completely support what she did, but I may be in the minority.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
I am really impressed by what she's done. Kudos for her fortitude to tell it like it is.
I do agree with you that this will be a messy thread tonight.
Count me in as a member of that minority, Patricia. And I've been in that minority a long time, and until the situation improves drastically, I shall remain in that minority.
I've witnessed first hand what the palestinian people go through on a daily basis, and it is shocking.
The Israeli's treatment of the Palestinian people is truly appalling--these people have their most basic human rights constantly violated...trampling on a Palestinian's dignity is a matter of course for these Israeli brutes.
Imagine having to stand by as your spouse or your children are publically humiliated by a group uniformed thugs--or having a 20' wall built outside your front door preventing access to your crops or your goat herd. Oh, you're able to gain access eventually, after first passing through a designated checkpoint at a designated time...provided you have the proper identification, of course (or any other government authorization they might deem neccesary).
You can be stopped at any hour of the day by any Israeli soldier and questioned as to where you are going and what your business is. The taunting and abuse you are subjected to, the humiliation and the derision with which you and your loved ones are treated is a sickening display of the worst kind of harrassment.
As a human being, this treatment of other human beings infuriates me more than words can adequitely express. I've only barely scratched the surface of the indignities Palestinian people are forced to submit to as a normal condition of their lives--I cannot believe we finance so blatantly such a criminal regime...and with literally billions of dollars!
As I'm sure you can guess, I've long been labeled an anti-semite..and you know what? I could give a damn! They can go straight to Hell for their crimes against humanity!
Jimmy Carter compared Israel's treatment of the Palestinians to Apartheid in South Africa.
Israel complained.
I think South Africa should have complained.
Horrendous as was South African Apartheid no report I read from that time compares with what the Israeli Nation has done and continues to do to the Palestinians.
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
Well, clearly you weren't around during Apartheid. I was.
To compare Israel to Apartheid South Africa would be laughable if it wasn't so disgusting.
Comparing Apartheid to the Palestinian situation is anything but "laughable".
What happened in South Africa is unquestionably appalling, and deserved of our worst condemnation--however that does not lesson, or make less relevant how Israel treats the Palestinians.
But equating the two is reprehensible.
What's reprehensible is the Untied States endorsment & financial support of crimes against humanity.
It's silly to argue who is the worse monster.
One more small point--Apartheid was outlawed years ago, but what's happening to the Palestinian people continues, on a daily basis, to happen...with no end in sight.
I happened to find this short video of Sen. Leahy and Sen. Whitehouse standing up for a Truth Commission. What Sen. Whitehouse says in this video is VERY sobering:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTzJf7m2NL0&eu...
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
In South Africa during and through the Apartheid. They're leaving now because of a huge reactionary movement against the white people in South Africa. Aartheid is offically ended, but far far far from being over.
It's just flipping the other way now.
And equating the two is actually NOT reprehensible at all. At least the Apartheid was condemned by the global community, where Israel has had (up to this point!) the backing of the sole hegemon in the world...
Gee, back in the day, South Africa had the support of the US government. Especially under Reagan.
How soon you forget...
And as for the "huge reactionary movement" against whites in South Africa, well, redistribution of wealth is a bitch, ain't it. You profit off slave labor then don't come whining to me when the slaves want it back.
Also, in my visits to South Africa since the end of Apartheid it is still the whites who are living high off the hog.
That my poor white friends have lived in for all these years.
Such a shame.
I highly doubt your white friends live in conditions such as those.
Sorry, but I can spare no pity for white South Africans. They benefited from Apartheid, one of the worst crimes against humanity of the 20th century.
They didn't live in the townships.
But the blacks in the townships had electrcity, running water, and cable TV (still do, in fact). All paid for by the government. They could choose to move their little tin shanty away, but then they wouldn't ahve those things.
The white people I know are landowners and live in Dust Bowl conditions right now. They must draw and carry their own water from wells, and live with bardebed wire fences and barred windows and doors, just in case pillagers feel like coming in and stealing everything and killing every person sleeping in the house (and it happens quite often).
All of the white South Africans I know grew up JUST AS POOR as any black person you can find, but they also didn't receive any of the "perks" black people did.
I'm sorry that you can only see in balck and white, but there really are many shades of gray.
And informative. Thank you, sunnysongbird.
I'm afraid that some people prefer their simple-minded, black & white view of the world & no amount of reality will convince them otherwise. It's so much easier to justify the most horrible situations that way.
If I'm not mistaken, didn't Robert Mugabe do basically the same thing in South Africa's northern neighbor, Zimbabwe years ago? And wasn't it soon after that that all the farms fell into disrepair, experiencing complete crop failure?
It seemed that the Blacks, who inherited the farms, didn't actually know how to farm, as did the whites. A bad situation soon turned disasterous.
This was the beginning of Zimbabwe's decline to where it is today--a diseased-ridden country with a 1600% inflation rate.
Gee, why does that NOT surprise me?
.
far left loon >.<
Hi Bix, I'm with you there. Seems like ISRAEL TROLLS scream anti-semitism just to stiffle all/any debate abt. their precious $$$$$$ from the US. I think this is TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!!! and I think it should be a national referendem ea. time, BLOODY ISRAEL expects to get the DOLE. Bloody Israel should get off the dole!!!! You know all the lunies scream abt. how entitlements are not a 'right' but a 'priviledge'??? We just heard that one abt. health care. We don't get health care, but ea. year BLOODY ISRAEL gets it's 8 MILLION DOLLARS!!!!
Hi mmm,
I'm just so god damn'd sick & disgusted with this countries endorsment & financing of a nation full of jack-booted haters that are trying to slaughter an entire population of human beings--yes, human beings...not the dogs that Israeli scum treat them as! Btw, I like your term "BLOODY ISRAEL" cuz' it fits to a T--totally appropriate.
Our support of this grotesque abuse is our national shame, imo...it's absolutely obscene what our dollars are making happen over there.
When BLOODY ISRAEL destroyed Lebanon a few years ago, they used what are called "cluster bombs"...an insidious little bomb that leaves literally hundreds of live little "clusters" scattered all over the landscape--clusters which remain explosive & lethal for years. And in this latest bit of nastiness they inflicted on the Gaza, they used white phosphorus bombs...which, upon explosion, covers everyone and everything in a phosphorus flaming "jelly" which is almost impossible to extinguish--these weapons are something out of Hell...they are also in violation of the Geneva Convention...of course, Bloody Israel could give a damn. And guess who supplied them to Bloody Israel? You got it. It's obscene & so shameful. Sickening.
These weapons don't care who they kill or what they destroy, and by far the vast majority of those killed are civilians...the elderly, men, women & children...innocents who die in the most horrendous way imaginable. This might be okay with most Americans, but by God, it is NOT okay with me!
Viva la Palestine!
I'm totally with you Bix12.
far left loon >.<
It is time to hold Israel accountable for its actions. For far too long they have been given a pass; authority to do as they please (and we all know why.)
far left loon >.<
The billions we contribute to Israel each year (of which they only have to account for 40% of, last I read) give us the right to debate the unrelenting building of settlements on Palestinian lands, the walls, the mis-treatments, the assassinations, potential war crimes, etc., etc. etc.
We probably paid for most of it.
Too bad, if the hawks don't like it.
We know they are our allies in the MidEast and we love 'em all, but they can not continue some of their behavior and expect a 'very broke' American middle class to support them forever.
(In my uneducated opinion, of course.)
Let the flaming begin...
who build or expand without permits
east jerusalem is still a part of jerusalem
and i agree...end all aid to israel
and to egypt, and to the palestinians...and to every country we send aid to
So, who do you think has an easier time getting a permit: an Israeli or a Palestinian????? C'mon, be honest.
far left loon >.<
I'm for debating anything. They don't debate. They smear.
is they?
The only reason Hillary Clinton would be criticizing Israel is if Barack Obama told her it was okay to do. That's the way it is. I'm glad she's doing it, but it's not out of the genuineness of her heart, its most likely because Barack said he's not putting up with the bullshit and gave Hillary the impression that is was okay to criticize their policies.
"Without debate, without criticism, no Administration and no country can succeed - and no republic can survive. That is why the Athenian law-maker Solon decreed it a crime for any citizen to shrink from controversy." - JFK - April 27, 1961
And logically proceeds to Why Is America Selling White Phosphorous To Be Used Against Civilian Populations In Defiance of International Law?
Bring it, Hillary. Stand up for the poor and oppressed for once. You owe it to Arkansans like me and my family.
people who support those who want to kill every last Jew on earth.
Poor, poor them.
And you assign guilt to other people for equating two very different things!
I think if you ask the "average Joe" Palestinian, they will have no love for Israel, sure, but for the most part, they will tell you they jsut want to go about their farming and living without being afraid anymore.
Isn't that what Americans want, too?
Oh, hey, whaddaya know.
You sound like an apologist.
I'm just someone who remembers who the people of Gaza voted for and continue to support.
Those who would ignore the existence and crimes of Hamas and Fatah are the apologists.
How when Israel slaughters Palestinians at a kill rate of 30:1, it's called "justified retaliation", but when the Palestines try to protect themselves, it's called a "crime".
protecting themselves?
Of course, if Hamas gets their way there won't be any more of those pesky jews around anyway.
You didn't buy into the United States justification of her support for Apartheid, but you go hook, link & sinker for the U.S. supporting Israeli's slaughtering hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.
Like most Americans, you are selective in your condemnation of the slaughtering of human beings.
personally, I think both sides are wrong. However, when I look at the situation, one side appears to mostly just want to be left alone in peace while the other side mostly wants to exterminate the other side.
Sadly, I can see no solution to it.
Religion poisons everything.
Kai, you didn't mention that those who want to "mostly be left alone", put those they do not like in cages and starve them of necessities.
I'm sure Southern plantation owners wanted "mostly be left alone", so they kept their slaves in line by beating and shackling them.
far left loon >.<
Protecting themselves against a ridiculously better armed military machine.
That sounds familiar--oh yes! That happened right here.
And nothing could be more American than rising up against one's oppressors
firing rockets into Israel offers NO protection to the people of Gaza at all. It is a terror tactic not very different than Hitler's ol' Buzz Bombs.
Indeed, firing the rockets into Israel has the opposite effect as it provokes Israel into pounding the shit out of Gaza.
But then, in Hamas' eyes if it kills Jews it must be good. And it's apparently getting them $$millions$$ from the US gov. to boot!
And comparing Hamas to America's revolution is pretty disgusting, if you ask me. I think if you went up the street from me to Lexington and Concord you'd have a real hard time with that argument as well.
Hitler had the mightiest military on the planet at the time...
Palestinian's are using 40 year old (at least) Russion surplus, with zero accuracy. Yes they still kill---occasionally, whereas those poor Israeli's use state-of-the-art white phosporus that can slaughter with 100% accuracy.
It's no accident that Israel has racked up more U.N. violations than any other country in the world.
The Buzz Bombs were used, mostly on the UK, after the German military could no longer strike at it in any meaningful way. In other words it was well after "Hitler had the mightiest military on the planet."
The V-1 was very inaccurate. The Germans just pointed it in the general direction of, say, London and launched it.
It's goal was to terrorize the targeted people, just like Hamas' attacks today.
And as for Israel's UN violations - remember that once upon a time the UN called Israel's very existence "racist."
Will never sway me from what I know to be true--I will remain justified in my beliefs by what I have seen with my own 2 eyes to be reality.
I will agree with you about religion poisoning everything, though--this Muslim vs. Judeo-Christian argument is a perfect example of that truism.
"You will never sway me from what I know to be true" - the epitome of having a closed mind.
Who is he going to believe you or his lying eyes?
Certainly not my lying eyes--I'd better correct my thinking and go with the party line.
Talk about closed minds--yours is obviously shut like a steel trap.
Judeo-Christians--Right & Good.
Muslims--Wrong & Evil.
And those millions we gave the Palestian Authority will be used to rebuild what the billions we give to Israel used to destroy Gaza....again.
And I know you believe that proximity somehow makes a person a better American...as evidenced by your "Lexington & Concord just up the street" comment...but I think I am still entitled to my share of "Patriot Points" for living 2 miles north of Boston for several years, living in Connecticut for several years & being born, and living in, Rhode Island for several years...certainly not as many as you have for living so close to sanctified ground, but still a fair amount, though.
My feelings are: Religion poisons everything.
That is ALL religions.
I won't even give you any points for that attempted religious smear.
penchant for comparisons. And I'm quite sure I wouldn't win any arguments with your patriot friends...and I'm actually thankful for that. My mind is my own...not something programmed by some twisted government policy.
if you're going to make comparisons between Hamas and folks like George Washington, you get what you get, "government policy" or not.
I thought that was what Bush has been liberating all those people in Iraq,Afganistan etc.for you know spreading democracy freedom on the march etc.
making a bad choice, such as voting for Hamas, can have bad consequences. Just like voting for W had.
The people of Gaza voted for Hamas. They supported Hamas when it went to war with Fatah. Now they reap what they've sown.
It's a word trick, a public relations gimmick designed to subtly conjure images of the Holocaust without technically saying so.
When you bypass the subtlety and go straight for "Hamas 'want[s] to kill every last Jew on earth'", you lose. As far as I know, no Palestinian has ever advocated worldwide genocide of the Jews. If I'm wrong, please link.
The trick to using the "right to exist" meme is to confuse your audience. The Palestinians will never admit that it was "right" for a bunch of Europeans to move in, take their land, and kill, maim or imprison their family and friends.
You then take the Palestinian refusal to admit that these atrocities were "right" and conflate that with an existential threat to the Jews.
When you go straight to the "kill all the Jews", it's just too easy to point out that you're just plain wrong.
Remember, this deception requires subtlety.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
"No Palestinian has ever advocated worldwide genocide of the Jews."
What are you, blind? It's right there in Article 7 of the Hamas Charter.
I guess, then, you've also never heard about the Grand Mufti, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini? He was a good buddy of Hitler's and agreed with him on what needed to be done about the Jews. Perhaps you've heard of his nephew, Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat As Qudwa al-Hussaeini? No? Well, he's better known as Yasser Arafat.
I could go on and on, but you'd probably just ignore the evidence.
I would like to read that
.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
use it.
Thought so.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
You're supposed to back up your claims not us
It's right there in the 7th article of the Hamas Charter.
I'm not to blame if you're too lazy to look it up for yourself. But it quotes, in part from a hadith: "The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"
And as for the Grand Mufti and his terrorist nephew, what, you're too lazy to look them up either?
Here's a coulple of pics of the Grand Mufti that're worth 1000 words: http://www.iranian.com/main/files/blogimages/...
http://jimball.com.au/Features/Mufti-Nazi.jpg
And of course, Yasser Arafat's PLO calls for the utter destruction of Israel and pushing the Jews "into the sea."
These aren't deep dark secrets here, you know. You'd almost have to be willfully ignorant on the Middle East not to know about them.
We all know it's much easier to cling to ingrained prejudices and hatred than it to actually make an effort to improve yourself through education.
THis from a guy who says "You will never sway me from what I know to be true"
Oh, the irony.
I spent 20+ years of life as a total supporter of Israel--I was raised to be so, & continued on my own. Then I found out the truth of what is happening over there--my opinions evolved.
So don't tell me my mind is closed, or anything like that! I've been on both sides of this argument--have you?!
You left out a rather important part of my statement--which is "based upon what I've seen with own 2 eyes"...which just goes to prove that like most superior super-patriots who are comfortable with wholesale human slaughter (provided it's in line with your lofty & rightous views) you are nothing more than a complete and total hypocrite.
I, too, was a BLOODY ISRAEL supporter, before I opened my lying eyes to what actually happened in a reported event, and WHO was the ultimate beneficery of such a report. From that observation (no Piss-stream-press involved) research on my own, blogs, conversation with my LIBERAL Jewish friends who declared so vehemently how totally WRONG the right-wingnuts are in gov. in BLOODY ISRAEL, this is how I gained my own understanding of the events, and believe me it was 180° around the bend from what was actually the case........... My observations also were that BLOODY ISRAEL always were the ones to cry 'Wolf'. Havn't they yet learned THAT lesson????? AND, my what deep pockets the PR of AIPAC/JINSA/BLOODY ISRAEL have!!!!! Where do they got 'their' $$$$$$ from the US!!! If they weren't on the dole, they'd be a lot more credible.
is this:
However, this appears to be a call to arms against their oppressors and not a call for worldwide genocide.
What do you think, Kai?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Is clearly about killing all Jews.
As to what you've posted, I don't read Arabic, so you could have posted a recipe for fuul for all I know.
use it.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Ewww... That might give me a fuul recipe regardless of the input.
But, you are correct. That is the quotation in question. Sadly, it is your interpretation that is stilted.
The brutality and xenophobia is quite clear. Of course, we can take passages from pretty much any "holy book" and make a group of people seem barbaric. That's why it's simply not very useful.
Same with "intentions." They can be pretty much whatever anyone wants them to be.
So I prefer to go on actions. And as far as I know, Hamas has not conducted ethnic cleansing of the Jews. Israel, on the other hand, has done so to the Palestinians since the inception of the state.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
quoting from the torah to justify genocide, as some jews do, like Hamas does with its use of this hadith, are no better than Hamas in my eyes.
Religion poisons everything.
Also, Hamas would, if it is to be taken at its word, kill every last jew on earth. Hopefully it will never be in a position to do so.
Israel, in contrast, has never conducted a genocide against anyone, even when it has been in a position to do so.
That's a big difference.
And, as for ethnic cleansing, most of the Palestinian "refugees" from israel left of their own accord to get out of the way of the Arab armies in 1948 who were coming to "push the Jews into the sea."
Pity for them their side lost, but that's hardly ethnic cleansing by israel.
The refugees were largely caused by Israeli Armies, in particular Menachem Begin's Irgun, attacking villages and killing every man, woman, and child they could.
This is hardly controversial as these actions have been condemned by Israel itself (e.g. Deir Yassin).
But we hardly need to go back half a century. How about less than half a year? After a heavy concentration of 1.5 million Palestinian refugees in Gaza, Israel (along with it's puppets in Egypt) made sure they couldn't leave and began bombing the imprisoned population.
Or how about the very subject of this thread? Why is Israel continuing to bulldoze and clearing 1500 Palestinians from East Jerusalem?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
The problem now is Hamas and Likud. Two parties that are bent on the destruction of each other.
There were inroads being made(like the Oslo Accords), but then a Likudnik assassinated Yitzhak Rabin...Shimon Peres and Ehud Barak worked with Arafat, but then Likud took over again, Arafat died, and Hamas came to power in Gaza. And that's where we've been ever since: hardliners from each population control their respective governments.
BTW: Look at the charts on this page.
And please do yourself a favor: research the history of the post-diaspora Jews. There were always Jews in the Middle East and North Africa, and there were always Jews in Jerusalem- they are the Mizrahi Jews. And they suffered in pogroms the same way Sephardic Jews did on the Iberian Peninsula and Ashkenazi Jews did in Central and Eastern Europe.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Still, I'm not sure I get your points. I understand the argument regarding hardliner positions of Likkud/Hamas, but my comprehension ends there.
My understanding is that the vast majority of Jews came to Israel from Europe following WWII. I don't really understand how a relative handful of Jews who lived in Palestine before that negates what is essentially just a modern example of European colonialism. Moreover, I fail to see how victimization of Jews in Europe justifies Jewish victimization of Arabs in Palestine.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Roughly 40% each of Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews.
And it's not like their ancestors wanted to leave that land- most were forced out and kept out. The Jews who lived there after the Diaspora lived there on the QT.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
I thought that was common knowledge, but here you are.
------
-----
If you'd like, I can link you some of the history of Arab pogroms against Jews in Jerusalem going back to the Ottoman Empire and earlier.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
And the information.
However, I'm not sure that it bolsters Kai's point which was that the Palestinians had voted for a group (Hamas) "who want to kill every last Jew on earth."
Kai additionally claims that "[b]efore 1967 there were no 'Palestinians.'" So, I'm not sure how incidents over seventy years ago support his claim that Hamas is bent on worldwide genocide of the Jews.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
You know what the American equivalent of Hamas is? White Supremacist Christians.
Kai's right about "Palestinians". That name comes from the Latin name for the area, and it's named for the Philistines, who were there long before the Arabs. Arab Palestine has never, ever been its own state. It was ruled out of Mecca, Baghdad, Persia (can't recall what exactly was the Safavid capital), by the Seljuk Turks, then the Ottomans out of Constantinople, and then out of London. The Arabs in Palestine shared the same regional government with Amman. The West Bank was Jordanian before the Six Day War.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
However, defining "Palestinian" is really a matter of semantics. It's why I didn't quibble with Kai's statement that none existed before '67.
However, to then go decades and claim "Palestinian" threats of genocide seems inconsistent at best (not you Andy K, Kai).
As for the white supremacist analogy, I'm not biting. When the KKK starts social welfare programs and attempts to feed, clothe and house people, the analogy might have a beginning. When the objects of hate for the KKK are their oppressors instead of their oppressed, the analogy may have some legitimacy.
For now, the white supremacist/Likkud Party analogy seems more fitting.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Two wrongs don't make a right- but I just addressed it back up-thread.
But I don't get it when liberal progressives back a violent, fundamental religious party like Hamas. I don't get it when liberal progressives in the US fail to see that Likud is no more Israel than the neocon Republicans were the US from '01-'08.
All of the violence has to end. Neither Likud nor Hamas do anything to help the situation.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Thanks for the discussion. But I'm worn out on this topic for now. GN.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Thanks for the sanity, fiver.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
"Likud is no more Israel than the neocon Republicans were the US from '01-'08."
I see. So, somehow, people are magically not responsible for the governments they elect. That's quite a stretch, don't you think?? Like it was all beyond your control: all you could do was vote? Gimme a break.
far left loon >.<
.
If you and your family were continuously treated in such brutal manner, robbed of your property, your heritage and your dignity, I'm sure you'd want to embrace your abusers, and have your children treat them with nothing but respect.
In fact the attacks began a week ago, before her criticism of Israel this week:
CBS News Feb 27, 2009: Jewish Leaders Blast Clinton Over Israel Criticism
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
Ethnic cleansing is "unhelpful."? So I guess Fat Man and Little Boy were a couple of firecrackers.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
killed about 250,000 people. How many people will these demolitions kill?
Are you really trying to equate the two?
To be painfully obvious, I was pointing out that "unhelpful" is an extreme understatement.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
In light of Israel's self awarded ability to decide if Gazans have an election and vote the "wrong" way Israel is entitled to punish Gazans.
Even though Israel had "pulled out" of Gaza and so should not have any claim to tell Gazans how to vote.
So Israel attacks "not under Israeli occupation" Gaza wiht full lethal force,kills unarmed civilian families and children and Secretary Clinton suggests Israel is being "unhelpful" tearing down houses in Jerusalem?
So does this mean it is OK for Gazans to decide Israelis voted the "wrong" way be electing the Likudniks and Netanyahu that Gazans can attack TelAviv and punish Israelis for voting the wrong way?
It may be "unhelpful" according to Secretary Clinton but she did not condemn Israel for doing this to Gaza. So it must be OK to do.
Those photo ops with Olmert Secretary Clinton let slide where she is grinning and Olmert is grinning?
Go for it United States. Back up war criminal Israelis.
See how that all works out.
"Unhelpful?" That is stone cold.
Whoever "Kai" is: You need to know that the actions of the past few months are self-evident. War crimes were committed by Israel, aided and abetted by the arms sales and/or giveaways for which the U.S bears full responsibility. History provides no justification for genocide, ever, and what happened in Gaza is just that.
Israel does not help itself , the expansion and the settlements , stealing land , is absolute bull shit as is turning away food and medicine to the people in Gaza who are trapped there , it cannot be justified . By the same token Hamas firing rockets into Israel daily , they are asking for more trouble , apparently is what the lunatics wanted and want regardless of the consequences to their own people . What's Israel to do , just let them fire away ? I really feel pity for the good and simple peace loving people on both sides who only want to live a normal decent life and raise their families . The hatred and resulting madness will never end .
Insanity , it is what it is , there is no understanding it .
Nothing.
Plain and simple.
Israel signed treaties to that effect. They need to respect them.
Using a WMD like white phosphorous over entire neighborhoods of civilians in retaliation for a few unguided rockets is disproportionate retaliation, and completely negates the practice of Just War.
Israel may be surrounded, etc, but they have nukes, and have proven themselves capable of defending themselves against attack.
But their being surrounded by enemies gives them NO RIGHT to oppress and commit war crimes against the human beings under their jurisdiction, in any way, shape or form.
They are no better than the Nazis when they do so.
Not even a Holy Magical Fairy Tale book allegedly written by an omnipotent, but unfortunately (and curiously) invisible dude who lives in the sky?
While a gruesome, gruesome artillery shell, it's not a weapon of mass destruction.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
And many times, the US itself has called white phosphorous a chemical WMD, until we want to use it...
Israel....
So easy to hate.
Given that Israel is blamed for things on a regular basis, much of what the Palestinians accuse Israel of has been conflated as propaganda...Just type in the Youtube search engine, "Pallywood".
Now, if the Palestinians stopped blaming Israel for the "occupation" that doesn't really exist, they could build their own Palestinian state, as Israel has offered and even given up land, particularly in 2005 for Palestinians to live in. Therefore, the Palestinians have no righteous anger - just negative energy taking it to the MSM. Thus, they don't need to live in self-pity, and thereby build their own Palestinian state in either Gaza or the West Bank.
Sure, everybody knows Israel isn't illegally occupying Palestinian lands. Israel's just on a very long-term friendly neighborhood visit with their killing and starving the Palestinians, with their guns and bulldozers and white phosphorus to liven up the visit. Entertainment purposes, you know. Make the visit worthwhile for the Palestinians and all that.
She could tell us all A LOT about Israeli bulldozers (most likely made in the U.S.A....adding insult to injury and death):
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/03/12/r...
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Her parents were there when she was run over by that bulldozer. I can't imagine how horrible that was for them.
Clintons doin a damn fine job IMHO.
I would hardly call her comments "criticism" but rather "gentle urging" that the Israeli govt is free to ignore if they choose- and they will. Then I saw this article today from McClatchy:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/63281....
Basically, the Mayor of Jerusalem and other Israeli leaders are denying that Hillary made so much as a peep about stopping the expansion of settlements, destroying Palestinian homes and opening up border crossings for humanitarian aid to Gaza.
I have to admit, when the Obama admin. took over and selected Hillary Clinton and then she selected George Mitchell as special envoy, I was hopeful that the US would come to the table with a more even-handed approach to the conflict (as opposed to simply kissing Israel's ass), but it seems that was just a pipe-dream.
Would you choose to believe a few Israeli officials over Hillary, I have to wonder?
Hillary apparently didn't make the statement TO the Israeli officials but rather she said it at a press conference with Abbas.
... might have some possible basis in reality? :)
Corruption favors the wealthy.
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x...
in the middle east. Her job is to work diplomatically with people who for decades have been at war and treating each other like animals and acting like animals. In this case, the Israelis are the animals with the big guns and the support of the US war machine and the wealth of American jews. The Palestinians are the animals with the rocks and rockets and suicide martyrs and Hamas/Syria/and, indirectly, Iran. The Israelis are the ones who build their "security wall" and continue to encroach on the West Bank and East Jerusalem with settlements with the intention of squeezing the Palestinians out. The Israelis call all the shots. The Palestinians vow to get even. The wrongs seem to be intractable. The Israeli strategies of building the wall and continuing to allow settlements in occupied territories are not going to lead to any lasting peace but will continue to erode any possibility of that ever happening. Why are the Israelis doing what they are doing? If they ever hope to have a jewish state of/for/by jews for jews, and I fervently wish them success in that endeavor, they are going to have to find a way to eventually live with their arab and Palestinian neighbors. If they don't, they are going to live in a permanent state of war and eventually they will be the losers. Israel will not be able to exist in the long term unless it dismantles the security wall, raises all of the settlements and relocates settlers back into Israel proper, agrees to share Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and of Palestine, East Jerusalem for the Palestinians, and begins to treat the Palestinians as people, and vice versa. Israel is still acting from a defensive posture as if it has only just now emerged from the holocaust. It cannot continue to act this way as a way of life indefinitely. Israel, since it calls the shots, needs to allow the Palestinians the opportunity to develop leaders who can sit down with Israel and negotiate a peace. Israel has actively prevented this from happening for many years. All factions of Palestinian society are going to have to agree that Israel has the right to exist and to renounce their death threat to Israel if they are ever going to hope to be able to negotiate for anything with Israel. If Palestinians want the right to return to Palestine, they would then have to settle for returning and living within the boundaries of what is to become the Palestinian state if that is to ever happen and be satisfied with that and to forget about reparation and/or restoration of property rights pre 1967. It's just not going to happen. What a big fat mess the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is. I do not envy our new Secretary of State her position in having to try to figure out a way to get the Israelis and the Palestinians to come together to find a way to live with each other in peace. But I do wish her all the best in this regard. This problem is not intractable even though both parties have their heels so dug in that at this point any hope for peace seems absolutely unattainable. Still, I hope for the best and I hope that Secretary of State Clinton is able to somehow work a miracle in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. But that will take the cooperation and some sacrifice on the part of both peoples. Whether or not both parties will ever be able to agree to fix the problem remains the biggest and most consequential question. A two state solution could be attained. In order for it to happen, these conditions have to be met:
First, both the Israelis and the Palestinians will have to begin to treat each other like human beings. Both sides will have to lay down arms in order for negotiations to proceed without the distraction of continuing bloodshed. Both Israel and Palestine will have to figure out a way to disarm and mollify their fundamentalist/radical/extreme political factions and find a moderate, civil way for negotiations to occur without being sabotaged by ancient, or new tribal hostility, animosity, anger or a compelling need/desire to seek revenge.
The Israelis will have to:
1. allow the Palestinians to develop leadership to come to negotiations
2. take down the wall
3. dismantle the settlements and relocate settlers back into Israel proper
4. agree to share Jerusalem as the capital of both Israel and Palestine, with east Jerusalem belonging to Palestine
5. allow the return of Palestinians to the new state of Palestine in its agreed to borders but not into what will become officially the state of Israel
6. work with the Palestinians on the issues of water, resources, work and the economy, etc.
7. if Israel could abide by these terms they could probably live with the Palestinians in safety.
The Palestinians will have to:
1. renounce their denial of the right for Israel to exist
2. negotiate land for peace and abide by the terms of peace
3. work with the Israelis on the issues of water, resources, work and the economy, etc.
3. live as neighbors of Israel and work with Israel to develop 2 vital states that could live together and benefit one another
I wish Secretary of State Clinton the best of luck. And I won't hold her personally responsible for things not going well if they don't. The lion's share of the work needs to be done one on one between Israel and Palestine and in good faith. If they can't do this mainly on their own, it's not going to happen, no matter what kind of a super woman and wonderful Secretary of State Mrs. Clinton is. It's really up to the Israelis and the Palestinians.
Israel.
Period.
Kai, I had to stop reading your "opinions", because they sound like they're from an asswipe.
far left loon >.<
They are.
Perhaps Israel should begin by demolishing its illegal settlements, which are a war crime and in violation of international law. The almost half million illegal Israeli settlers should pack their bags and move if there is ever to be a Palestinian state.
Israel should be forced to abandon its two concentration camps and recognize the creation of a contiguous Palestinian state.
Anything less is a continuation of war crimes and US funding should cease.
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