Congress Continues to Deny Reality: Single Payer is The Only Thing That Makes Economic Sense
By Susie Madrak Thursday Jun 18, 2009 11:00amYou gotta love that quote from Rahm Emanuel: "I don't control the Congressional Budget Office." Right. That's why we don't know how much money single payer would save, right, Rahm?
This is such a freakin' joke. So far, we've spent $907.3 billion dollars on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars - and that's just what they're admitting. They have money for just about anything else they want to do - except take care of the people who put them there.
You see how they're all running around like chickens with their heads cut off over this CBO report? Steny Hoyer promised he would get the CBO to score single payer but somehow, it never happened.
Gee, I wonder why? Because they knew what it would show - that single payer would cover everyone for what we're already paying.
(CBS/AP) Eye-popping new cost estimates for President Obama's plan to overhaul the U.S. health care system are forcing majority Democrats to scale back their plans to subsidize coverage for the uninsured.
The $1 trillion-plus estimates come as the Senate Health Committee prepares to meet Wednesday to begin crafting a bill around Mr. Obama's top legislative priority.
Big holes remain to be filled on the most controversial issues in the health care bill authored by the committee's chairman, Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass.: a new public insurance plan to compete with the private market, and whether employers must provide health care for their workers.
Of course, anything requiring employer-provided health care will further delay an economic recovery because health insurance is a business's biggest expense.
[...] Negotiations were roiled Monday by an analysis from the Congressional Budget Office that said Kennedy's bill would cost about $1 trillion over 10 years but leave 37 million people uninsured, compared with 50 million who are uninsured now.
Democrats called the numbers inconclusive, reported CBS News correspondent Wyatt Andrews, and even the CBO called its own report incomplete. But the sheer magnitude of what Congress is considering is undeniable.
"The news yesterday from the CBO is a turning point in the health-care debate," said Rep. Eric Cantor.
Yes, I could see that a report telling you that doing it the wrong way is more expensive would encourage you to further avoid doing it the right way!
Also on Tuesday, a cost estimate for the Finance Committee bill became public: $1.6 trillion. Senators quickly huddled on ways to bring down costs, with Baucus insisting the final price tag on the Finance Committee bill would be around $1 trillion.
At the Senate Health panel, officials said that after penciling in subsidies for families with incomes as high as $110,000, or 500 percent of the federal poverty level, they would limit the help to families up to $88,000 in income, or 400 percent of the poverty level.
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that the whole health care reform issue will go down in flames or be so watered down in the end that the final product will benefit very few. Nobody - not those on the Left and the Right - including the President, has the guts to stand up to the special interests. The Right will blame Obama, the Left will blame the Right and those of us struggling to pay through the nose for health care will lose. It's really a damn shame.
Socialized Single Payer health care is not for the masses. It is only for our exalted public servants.
It's too good for the peasants.
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Let's face it. Too many of the positions of official or unofficial power have been taken over by people with absolutely no interest in serving the public trust. The right-wing authoritarians develop corrosive yet effective talking points, the media eagerly disseminates them, the Congress waffles and capitulates, and nothing changes except that the rich get richer, etc.
This policy paper, from the Physicians for National Health Care (PNHC) makes a detailed analysis of all the times that individual states tried to provide universal healthcare by tinkering around the edges of the existing system, and shows that EVERY ONE OF THEM FAILED MISERABLY.
Do not be fooled by BS Op/Ed pieces by Davit Gatzer about Ontario Canada (population 13 million) having sent about 50 patients to the States to clear a backlog, while ignoring the fact that over 30% of American seniors can't pay for their meds, and 1 million of them have to buy them from Canada where they are cheaper. (VERY ironic, given that the drugs they re-import are actually MANUFACTURED in the U.S.)
Single Payer WORKS, as evidence by every country that uses it.
Tinkering with the current system DOES NOT WORK, as evidenced by the State failures listed in the paper linked to above.
The worst thing that can possibly happen to Health Care in the U.S. is for Senate and House Democrats to lose their nerve, chicken out, and cave in to half measures, only to re-create one of the documented State health care failures. That will allow the opposition to point to a failed mixutre of public and private healthcare as an example of why SINGLE PAY will never work. It will kill/flatline any possibility of healthcare reform for an entire generation, and we'll be having this same debate again, twenty years from now!
in the US. We are not supposed to buy them from Canada because the quality is suspect, but those from China are acceptable as long as Big Pharma can reap profits from them. What a system. We're all screwed.
Congress works! I suppose they could all just go into hiding until this whole health-care nonsense blows over...
But they'll argue that they want it to make dollars.
The current plan will allow the medi corp to loot the tax payers. The insurance co will insure the low cost people and the taxpayers will fund the costly patients. The hospitals will still do costly operations (when not needed) because the taxpayers will pay up. The current plan (last i heard) will cost an additional 150 billion a year. The interest on the national debt the repugs put on our credit card is north of 300 billion (at the current low rates). You never hear the repugs sound off about it costing us 3 trillion (or more) the next 10 years.
[ http://dodd.senate.gov/index.php?q=taxonomy/t... ](06:13)
Health Care Reform Ideas - Thanks!
[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pOVbpo73LY&eu... ](04:19)
of Rahm.
No rahm nor reason...
Seems rather pointless, doesn't he?
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...he no longer has a vote in Congress.
the Democratic Party to the Corporatists during Bill's first term.
When they got their heads handed to them on healthcare reform, they dropped their pants and took it up the ass from the insurance companies and the AMA in order to not lose the big dollar donations needed for Bill's reelection.
The Clinton cabal is in control of this White House. Rahm Emmanuel is the prenultimate Bill Clinton lackey.
Just today I was thinking, "What would be the difference if Hillary was the PresDent now?"
err ..
1) We'd be listening to her grating whiney voice instead of Obama's mellifluous tones ..
2) She probably would still be playing the same duplicitous diplomatic games with Israel that Bush was playing ..
But other than that, every step of the Obama administration so far has been exactly how I would have expected the Corporate Democrat Hillary to have acted.
(oh, maybe the Jazz events and the Garden on the Lawn wouldn't be happening ..)
...is what about all the other major corporations, GE, CBS, yes, even FOX...and all those struggling Banks: Don't THEY want single payer? Aren't they sick of co-paying huge insurance policies that drain their funds and don't much help their employees?
I realize our corporate structure is incestuous as well as dishonest, but surely someone like Microsoft could speak up in favor of Single Payer or "Millions of Tax Payers" to be more accurate.
because by having Big business employers serving as the gatekeepers, it turns healthcare into a rationed commodity. By turning it into a rationed commodity to which they control access, it makes for a more compliant and obedient workforce. People will be less likely to quit jobs they hate with employers they despise if leaving a job means limited or zero access to a basic necessity of life. Control is more important than competitiveness to these companies.
means.
If you are married, have children, and are making $88,000 a year, you are either up to your eyeballs in debt, or you are barely getting bye.
Hell, college tuition alone is anywhere from $10,000-$25,000 a year now, and that's for one kid.
I have a better idea. How about a wealth tax on those criminal gazillionaires on Wall Street and corporate america. I could easily come up with about a half trillion there over the next 10 years.
Of course those poor souls would have to try and make ends meet on $200,000,000 a year instead of $400,000,000, but I think they will make it.
Actually I think there should be a steep tax incline for CEO's and managers making over a certain percentage over their employees.
That way, hopefully, they'll equalize the percentages some, or off-set their cost of living with greater tax dollars into the social network, and reign-in out of control--irresponsible behavior that risk the businesses for ephemeral huge profits.
... if you tax rich people, they will not have an incentive to work hard, and the whole economy would collapse. Or so I have been told by my friendly local GOP/Libertarian chapters...
When have the rich ever worked hard? They fired all the hard workers, and paid themselves $$$$$$$$$$$ bonuses for doing nothing but wrecking the country.
Some people are dense as lead.
It's called GREED - egregious, rapacious Greed.
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... I have asked the person making such claims, that since they themselves don not make $200K a year, if that means that they are either lazy, or that they are not going to work hard due to lack of economic motivation.
You can imagine the continuum of confused stares and crickets chirping that follows...
You paint a pretty rosy picture compared to our reality. Health care issues have almost cost us our house and me, my life. We're barely getting by, I can't work yet -- I don't know how we're going to do it. We haven't paid any of the hospital bills for my last two stays.
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Married, both of us work, two children, and make $90,000. Live in Tennessee, rural at that, and have to constantly listen to these repukes make comments about the president and how he ain't bringing the Hope or Change that I said he would. I said half the GWB administration would have to answer for their crimes, that the oil companies would get bent over, Wall Street execs would be made accountable, shady creditors would be brought to their knees, we would finally have true universal healthcare, etc,etc, etc. I now look like a fool because our President has the political capital to get this stuff done, but don't want to make the repukes mad. No balls at all, real impressive. I'm out, not ever wasting my time voting again.
So what is the objective?
For the people to bend over and grab their ankles again, so the corporate welfare queens can shove their big HMO insurance plans where the sun don't shine!
America pays more for healthcare than any other nation, but we don't receive anywhere near the best healthcare. In fact by most measurable standards, America's health is horrendous. Defenders of the 'free market' should be the first to be speaking out against the American healthcare systems since it makes a mockery of the basic tenets of captialism.
Corporate capitalism = social Darwinism. You have a few suits at the top, getting fat and happy on the death and misery of others.
Tom Daschle came out today against the public option, which isn't surprising considering he's taking a ton of cash from the insurance lobby.
Steve McMahon, a Dem "strategist", was on Tweety's show saying Dems should drop the public option and pass a reform bill with at least 80 votes, so it's bipartisan!
With Dems like this, who needs Republicans?
yay for progress!
It may be coming out of two speakers, but they are playing from a mono recording.
Yes, lets make the GOP psycho's that are loathed feel wanted, by screwing the American people who put US in power.
If these democrats are not in on the take, they are the dumbest bastards whoever lived.
He sounded like a concern troll with the flimsy rationalizations he was peddling: "We've come too far...blah, blah, balh". Right, Tom. The crooks always have a lofty sounding excuse that allows them still believe that they're just oozing with integrity. And to think, I once held a measure of respect for the guy. What a stinking, corrupt whore.
yet another reason for Publicly financed elections ASAP. Maybe that will have to happen before any real improvement can be accomplished.
Matt Tabbai said this about Tom Daschle, ".....Tom Daschle would suck off a corpse for a free cheeseburger." And I couldn't agree more.
If we pass the public option, the health insurance companies will use it to dump their most expensive customers onto the taxpayers. Then, the public option will become burdensome and require higher deductibles and copays. It will not be competitive with the insurance industries.
Then the right will point to it as a failure and a taxpayer burden and proof positive that no public healthcare system is viable.
Far from being a step towards Single Payer, it will be the death knell of Single Payer.
from conceptualguerilla.com
the insurers said that they could save 2 trillion over ten years. If they can scale back enough to save 2 trillion, 1 trillion doesn't seem like too much to pay. How many trillion is private insurance going to cost over those ten years.
I almost forgot: I can't stand Rahm Emmanuel! He, like Larry Summers and Wall Street Geithner are part of the problem - not the answer.
I must be a totally different kind of democrat than Obama, because I wouldn't have picked any of the republican-lite assholes he has chosen for advisors.
I'm just not getting those FDR vibes I had the audacity to hope for!
Obama quacks like a JFK, looks like a FDR, too bad he walks like a Reagan.
Well said.
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Alas, I remember getting tons of flack... when during the primaries Obama listed Reagan as one of his heros as he waxed poetic.
I tend to go with Occam's razor most of the time, and take that people say what they mean. And that was one of the big red flag moments for me (given that the choice end up being between Obama and McCain there was no question McCain as president would be the end of this country). However, I am just not surprised to witness how an Obama administration is turning out to operate.
When Obama made those statements there were a litany of posters who made all sorts of excuses, always centered around the "playing chess motif," I am sad to see some of them still operate under the same framework. I guess I have moved on from the denial phase in my grieving process...
In any case, as usual... we could be much much worse. Gotta find a silver lining somewhere...
But health care isn't one of them.
"we the people" have been stabbed in the heart. Our "representatives" are shown without clothes, in the naked light for the thieves and cretins that they are. Those that do represent us (like Bernie Sanders, Dennis K, and a tiny handful of others) are so few in numbers as to make them innefectual in the face of unrestrained graft and greed. Hope - Change we can believe in? Someone please tell me where it is.
... no change there :-(
That was worthy of Mark Twain. Well done.
Hey just sit back for the ride, hope your not sick or hurt. So 2 years from now, when republicans start winning seats again, can we say Obama sucks? Or will we have to say how great he is just so no Republican candidate can take our money? cause we'd rather a cool slick democrat rob us.
This is starting to get just a tad ridiculous, don't ya think?
"The rich stay healthy
While the sick stay poor"
U2
The poor are bailing out the rich bankers and now they expect us to further bail out the bloated and egregiously greedy Health Insurance Industry. While we lose our homes, our health and our lives.
What's wrong with this picture?
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What they want is a law that requires all citizens to purchase insurance policies from them. It will be mandatory, and once it is, they will have your money and free reign to raise premiums, deny coverage, and do anything else they want to do to increase their profits. We would be better off to just stop the whole process and leave everything the way it is now. To give up single-payer for nothing is one of the biggest mistakes or scams I have ever seen. It is right up there with the phony war, because at least the same number of people are going to die from it, but every year instead over a period of years. There was absolutely NO reason to take that off the table, except that politicians were paid to do it. No excuse for it whatsoever. The least it would have been is a bargaining chip, if this had EVER been an honest process. It never was.
would be the best and fastest way for the economy to recover. The repugs and blue dogs don't want a successful recovery.
Exactly - can't have the peasants healthy, can we?
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I had an e-mail today from Paul Begala soliciting money for the DCCC. I went to their site and left them a message. I said we could talk about donations when Americans had Single-Payer health care.
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They have GOT to be kidding! Giant cajones!!! I'm sure our email goes right to dev null - but at least we let them know why they won't get a nickel.
from the DCCC and 5 minutes ago I just replied to one from David Plouffe. My typical response to the DCCC and the SCCC is that since it is impossible for me to distinguish them and the candidates they back from Republicans, any spare money I have will go to Blue America.
My comment to Dave Plouffe was:
"David,
If you aren't working for universal, single payer healthcare, your part of the problem, not part of the solutions. You guys are blowing it.
Paul"
Look, when Rahm et al sell out and fail to pass a public option then fine, string them up. In the mean time, chill the fuck off.
[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU7nG3KvZDA ](2:16) ;)
Bail outs, Fisa, Wars, energy plans, prosecutions so your saying after we get screwed 6 times then it's time to string em up, ok, cool I was wondering when was the time, thank you. Add more flip flops if any.
A public option is not the same as Single Payer. Public option is a shell game -- what we need is single payer. Public option is crap.
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And look how hard they're trying to take even the crap away from us.
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... fully inserted in our rectums, to figure out we don't like the prospect of having a 10 ft pole up our collective derrieres.
Unless you enjoy that sort of thing... in which case, go ahead. Just don't take us for the ride....
;-)
the financial elites don't want us/all to have affordable healthCare. "we the people" are asking for it and they will deny it. they don't want us to be competitive here in the u.s. and spoil there advances abroad.
i've said many times CHINA is now implementing a universal healthCare system. HOW are we to compete in this global economy? CHINA has limited protection laws,less regulation for business, never ending supply of "cheap labor",infrastructure and NOW universal healthCare. i can only figure they don't want the u.s. worker to compete. they want us to overcome near impossible odds. i believe they want us to be CO-dependent on foreign markets.
we can not compete - they have turned their fangs to a new victim, as the U.S. is now pretty much a dry husk, its life force if not gone, significantly reduced. On the giant chess board, they have no interest in this U.S. any longer. And so the big shots are just saying - hurry up and DIE!
sphere of influence, doesn't it?
..I'm rapidly losing confidence in this administation bringing change we can believe in BUT...
..I'm now wondering whether the amount of money we will be spending (and deservedly so) on the returning, wounded War Veterans is suddenly starting to make politician's sphincter's pucker. It will be, by all accounts, considerable. While the administration claims it wants to fix "health care" with a "budget-neutral" plan, maybe they are starting to realize how expensive it all is going to be. Letting W keep the war out of the budget was foolish and maybe there's no connection but this "wafflin'" on campaign promises is too much.
... so the "there is no money" argument is pretty pointless.
The only ones shit out of luck would be the top employees of health care management teams, but we are talking about a few tens of thousands of workers tops. Which given the current bleeding of jobs during the past few months seems rather insignificant...
Basically we are paying more NOW for less care, just so that we can keep a few tens of thousands of people making beaucoup money. It seems down right criminal... and a very shitty value proposition if we are just looking at it from a purely business-like perspective.
.."The only ones shit out of luck would be the top employees of health care management teams" but even they might not be out of work with single-payer. Single-payer is only going to be competition and then it's "survival of the fittest" not "..fattest".
They always have plenty of money for their cronies and themselves. It's just when the people are due a little that suddenly costs and "socialism" become major "concerns." These bastards are so transparently full of shit it's laughable.
I don't know what disgusts me more? Their in your face f**k you arrogance, or the stupidity of large sections of the American populace, who still support them to this day.
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I want answers and I can handle the truth.
and strategy ,
For Repugs , Indies , and Dinos
RID-A-CONS
Looks like the BIMBO from Alaska has say Brain Dead followers who think they can cow toe Letterman. Well as of today I know longer eat at the Olive Garden, oh if it makes a difference I usually drop between $200 and $300 dollars and have a party of 6 to 8 with me that does the same. So back the Brainless Bimbo from Alaska I will spend my money someplace else
Thanks for identifying Olive Garden as a non-Letterman business. I also heard that Embassy Suites also dropped their advertising. So goodbye
Olive Garden and Embassy Suites -- no more business from me.
it will be met with the kind of fervor reserved for the Titanic sailing into New York Harbor.
It will be a pile of status-quo-preserving gibberish, with a couple of very obvious, easy to spin, good ies thrown in to make it look like something it is not and never will be, which is a health care plan by which the fuckers making the laws accord the respect due to the health and wellness of the people who sustain their slag-asses.
It's like: Look. I don't have any control over how you rob me and mine with your scams and schemes yer fucking derivatives, and cdos and shit. But at least, make it possible that me and mine don't have to give you ALL our shit so we can stay alive a little longer, if we get sick, okay?
Waddaya say? I mean, c'mon...
They will change the color of the forms needed to sign up for health insurance. They will also add a few extra signature lines. Of course everything else will be the same, and the "public option" will require that people make less than $0.00000001 a week for them to qualify and will have all sorts of restrictions on it, but it will be glorious.
but why aren't we going to D.C. to protest on the 4th of July. This is as important to the future of our country as what the elections are to the future of the Iranians. I know that there more than 1/2 million of us that are not satisfied with the private insurers. There are 50 million that have nothing to be satisfied about.
would actually be a good time for it, because the city is set up to absorb gazillions of extra people for the fire works:extra trains, etc. Be a good day to flood the city with a couple of million people.
On this topic I suggest that recruitment come to a halt, any BIG BUSINESS involved with this fiasco called Iraq and Afghanistan should be boycotted. Any businesses in the local communities NOT supporting single payer Insurance are to be boycotted. This Insurance SCAM by the AMA and the Insurance Scum Companies are talking profits and as they said you get sick the drop you DUH! do we need poof the magic dragon to tell these IDIOTS in Congress they REPRESENT us NOT special SCUM and Trash Interests.
..what is the connection between Palin and olive garden?
I didn't vote for Palin and I won't eat at Olive Garden but I am curious.
i'm not curious but i guess olive garden dropped ads during letterman show. olive garden has a huge after church demogaphic. i would bet there's plenty of people in line for letterman ad time.
in this country, and is strictly a lobbying group. All they care about is profits from the practice of medicine. Screw the Hippocratic Oath.
As a professional association, most of the members just care for the reduced journal subscription and conference rates.
However, as far as professional associations go. The AMA is particularly evil. In fact, I can not think of another professional association that has advocated openly for not just not expanding enrollment among the medical profession... but to actually artificially limit the supply.
Their concern? Quality of care? Nope... one of the biggest fears of the AMA is that if we produce too many doctors, that would affect adversely the salary pool. Yay!
realize we represent only corporations that pay us the big bucks and not the stupid, pathetic cry-baby taxpayers. We can buy all the private insurance we want with the money they give us and still have millions left over. The only reason we accept the free insurance is because we can. All you dumb fucks go live in Canada or Sweden if you think they're so great, and quit cluttering up our United States of Corporate America.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/6/17/7...
27% of Americans had their health coverage paid by Medicare, Medicaid or the U.S. MIlitary and this does
NOT account for for state/federal employees. i guess we can only go partial socialist not all socialist.
if you factor in the uninsured that show up in ERs for which the hospital never gets reimbursed (and therefore has to raise "prices").
oh no doubt i usually/often point that out. the cost of the uninsured and the UNDER insured is shifted to the PAYing pool and the TAX payer. we cannot compete economically until healthCare ins. is under control. companies that provide healthCare ins. to employees get TAX breaks(ERISA) that's subsized by TAX payers. this is becoming more of a benefit for the wealthier. since the business strategy is to hire less full-time and more part-time with NO benefits.
It's really sickening how the Corporate/Congress/Media Complex try to paint single payer as a fringe movement. It reminds me of "impeachment is off the table", the Dean scream hype or Kucinich believing in UFOs. Progressives are shut out in this damn Corporatocracy. The Repugnants have manipulated President Obama by using the Socialism boogie man, thus making him less liberal than he probably is. I hope he figures out this political tactic before it's too late.
isn't it?
I believe he is a liberal at heart, but all the corporate corruption, bribes and repugnant tricks are wearing on him. I've never seen him as superman. At least he cares about public opinion, his benefits for gays yesterday came after a public outcry the day before on his lack of leadership on that issue.
and then throw them a bone. Pure "strategery."
is one of them.
Out of the $73K (pretax) my wife and I make in one year, $11,400 of it goes directly to our healthcare insurance provider. This cost (along with gas, utility, taxes, and interest rates on our one and only credit card) have steadily climbed while services have steadily declined.
When we cast our votes for change last November, we really believed the "big business first" mentality would change.
President Obama is a vast improvement in comparison to George Bush but the bar wasn't set too high to begin with. This is a clear cut case of our representatives coddling health insurance companies and protecting the hands that feed them. American's (myself included) should be in the streets protesting, camping out in front of legislators offices and homes but life is still too easy for us to get off our asses and do it.
Banks were handled with a kit glove while auto workers were given an ultimatum and a deadline and we STILL did nothing! Things are better but were not getting what was advertised, change and REFORM!
The simple fact remains: Politicians are self serving people who only care about regaining power through re-elections. Any other Country would have their citizens fighting mad for change, I guess we all forgot what being a patriot is all about, fighting for the hard working people who really make up our Country, I know we forgot what compassion means.
...wanting single payer healthare, the only thing these politicians, including Obama, are doing is committing political suicide. I am at the point where I am compelled to consider any politician, GOPer or Democrat who comes out against universal single payer healthcare as being irredeemably corrupt and underserving of any person's trust. Or vote. The "Public Option" is bullshit, and proof to me of unacceptably poor judgement and integrity.
These people may actually succeed this time around at denying the will of the People, acting instead in favor of prostituting their offices for the benefit of those who can bribe them but who have no vote. They prove their corruption and their lack of committment to democracy by doing this. But, there is nothing they can do that cannot be rapidly undone, once they have been ejected from office and replaced by representatives with integrity. They are seriously misreading the public mood and sentiments and will undoubtedly be shocked when they find themselves unemployed. Too few of them, including Obama, seems to get it in their guts that they are just hired help.
My loyalty to my elected Democratic representatives exactly matches their loyalty to the People. If Obama wants to be a single term president, for example, he's hitting all the marks needed to make sure that happens.
Well said. They ARE actually traitors to America. We need to portray them as such.
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I was waiting for Bush to do this, but apparently he was too stupid to do it. Anyone who thinks we can just throw them out and easily change what has happened is smoking crack.
...not smoking crack, but wish I was. I too expected Bush to declare martial law in order to suspend election. But as it turned out, it wasn't necessary, because they manipulated the primaries process so the only candidates who had a likely chance represented more of the same. The only difference from the Republicans was to be found in the rhetoric they democratic candidates deployed. And now it's turning our to be just more of the same.
They don't realize the very serious trouble Americans are actually in. Our entire middle class is being bankrupted by the health care situation. No only are we losing our homes, but we are dying for want of proper health care.
Congress doesn't care - they have socialized single payer - the best in the country. Who gives a goddamn about the unwashed masses?
They're all got "I GOT MINE" tattooed on their privileged asses.
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The Democratic Party has been hijacked by the Decepticons.
You know you are begging for this, ... Where are the Autobots?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLS2N9mHWaw
Listen to it realy....really
I can see how Public Option COULD be a stepping stone to Single Payer.
Not at all guaranteed .. but COULD be made to happen.
IF (1) lots of people sign up for Public Option
AND (2) Public Option effectively limits costs & profits
THEN the Private Health Insurance Companies get squeezed out
AND THEREFORE the Public Option becomes THE Single Payer.
But on the one hand that's a perilous journey, that would take time.
And we need a solution yesterday.
that's probably the real reason they don't want the public option. they will say government backed healthCare ins. has an UNfair advantage so they can't compete. i say they should have thought about that before in order for this not to happen.
But, it isn't true because there will be no public option. If single-payer had been on the bargaining table, it could have been exchanged for a slightly lesser option (the public option). But as that is gone, the only choice the Dem cowards and sell-outs have is to just cave.
...as being the corporatists fallback position in making sure that single payer never happens. They figure that the public's attention span is too short to continue building momentum and that the energy for doing it will be expended in this fight. Then, once the "Public Option" is put in place, they will kill it by subjecting it to a death-of-a-thousand-cuts: violations that aren't prosecuted, hidden amendments snuck into legislation that dismantle it in a piece-meal manner, greater levels of corporate bribery...until it becomes effectively dead and useless.
What you are describing is essentially a political term called the "Overton window".
Insurance companies will turn around and use the public option to dump their most expensive customers onto the taxpayers. Then, the public option will become burdensome and require higher deductibles and copays. There is no way the public option will be competitive with the insurance industries.
Then the right will point to it as a failure and a taxpayer burden and proof positive that no public healthcare system is viable.
Far from being a step towards Single Payer, the public option will be the death knell of Single Payer.
Either there is a clear roadmap where we are going, or if we fall for the same "game of chess" where the Dems do not "mean" what they say... then we are going to be taken for the proverbial ride, again.
I see where you are coming from, but if we have to be basing this reform on non-conisce "could bes, should bes, may bes" we're not going anywhere fast. I simply stopped trusting the political establishment long ago, unless it is clearly stated in writing... I don't care for it (and even then, I may have reservations on account lying is second nature for the political class).
Paradigm Shifts move into Tipping Points. Single Payer is the new paradigm. I feel that with continued pressure a Tipping Point will be made. That Tipping Point will be made in the streets, not by the Demo Party. The old guard of the Democratic Party is resisting its implications. Namely, the challenge to Demo Corporate power structures. But I don't think Obama is making this easy. He's become an impediment to sane health care reform.
I hate to say it, but lately I'm feeling that I've become the Loyal Opposition to the very party I worked so hard for last year. What gives? Does Obama take the Progressives, new and old, for granted? Does he think that we are so scared of Repubs that we would never stay home in 2010? Does Ralm Emanual or Larry Summers or the Justice Dept or all the Obama Repub's running the Pentagon think that we are a bunch of mindless punks, only to be used for money every couple of years? Why do I feel conflicted with the Administration? Is is because Obama is better than Bush or Reagan, but is only skimming above Clinton or Eisenhower? Why do I think Obama's more worried about the halls of Harvard Law than the working streets of Chicago?
Now, I'm very proud of the fact that Obama got elected. He doesn't embarrass me in public. But I'm starting to have the same questions Bill Maher has. Is this the change I voted for? Obama has surrounded himself with the old guard and these advisers despise Progressives. Progressives are asking for structural fairness, and these old-guard Demos are working to bring back the status quo through window dressing.
Please President Obama, prove to me that my concerns are without merit.
...when I've said that these guys are seriously misreading the will of the public. I actually think that we are at the tipping point, which is good for democracy. Very good, because of who and what we are actually fighting against. This is more than a simple fight for a basic human need and right and more than just a simple fight against corporate greed and its ability to corrupt our government.
This following is going to sound somewhat strange, possibly even conspiracy theorist. Oh, well and regardless:
This issue is also a fight for democracy, for representative government. Obama, and most of the officials arrayed against single payer healthcare are members in good standing of the Council of Foreign Relations. They're true believers. One of the objectives of the CFR, and the Trilateral Commision, with which the CFR is closely associated, is to limit what they called "abuses of democracy"(1), and by so doing, limit democracy itself. The concept contains the belief that democracy must be restrained and controlled by strong leaders who, naturally, know better than the masses of how to govern. They hold that if government is left strictly to the will of the people, government will fail in a death spiral of stupidity and short-sightedness, along with society. The members of these orgnizations see themselves as being the natural leaders.
As an aside, the CFR is mainly for those still in government, and the Trilateral Commission is for those who have left government. Their objectives and ideology are aligned.
To those who subscribe to such ideas, the appearance rather than the fact of democracy is what is important. When you wade through all their bullshit, it ends up being a highly convoluted construct of rationalizations that seeks to justify a neo-feudal system of rule by elites. Guess who the elites are...
In this light, the unresponsiveness of Obama, his advisors and our Congressional leaders to the will of the People begins to make more sense. These guys are playing straight out of the CFR/trilateralist strategy book. They have no intention of ever bending to or serving the will of the People beyond capitulating to that unavoidable minimum of action that is necessary to maintain their public pretense of a committment to liberal democracy. Were an issue like universal healthcare, which would empower the People and enhance democracy, allowed to become a reality, it would represent a setback to these guys' agenda, if for no other reason than it would stand as a powerful and resonating reminder of who actually holds power in our country. Such a thing is intolerable to them. They're not going to willingly let that happen. Hence, they must be put out of office, because this issue devolves down to a contest of mutually exclusive intentions about what our country is now and is to become in the future. It is a contest they mean to win, using the powers available to them from elective office.
(1) That exact phrase is in the founding charter of the Trilateral Commission, which used to be available on-line in the earlier days of the intertubes.
Yes I know, this sounds tinfoil hattish. Still...
Your concerns have merit, but I do not believe Obama is going to take the trouble to prove otherwise. Just don't think it's going to happen.
Well...the GOP circus show known as "Jackasses on Parade"...has rolled out the Head Jackass.
Bush takes aim at Obama policies
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/
Just like a bad case of herpes, I am afraid Bush will keep coming back.. only to leave us hoping wether or not he is gone for good.
Whose idea was it to give these yahoos free healthcare for life plus pensions? I don't recall voting for that. Come to think of it, I don't recall authorizing the regular pay raises they've received, feast or famine.
...they get to authorize such bennies for themselves.
I wouldn't mind a gig like that. How about you?
Come on, do a cost analysis of single payer.
Jesus, what a bunch of tools -- defrauding us right to our faces saying, "Don't like that we are screwing you? Whatcha going to do about it?"
I can't recall when I've been so openly screwed right to my face. From Obama right down to the newest member of Congress.
We can't have single payer, because it would put the insurance/HMO/big Pharma thieves out of work.
Kinda like disregarding a cure for cancer because it would put grave diggers out of work.
Would be nice to say we will vote out the politicians if they don't come through on single payer, but we have come to accept crooked elections in America, so that's probably not an option.
Take to the streets? No, America is weak and soft and is not going to risk anything by taking to the streets. The kids did it in the '60s only because it was a choice for them: Risk my life in the streets or risk my life in the jungles of VietNam.
We are so screwed.
gone towards curing cancer. If they don' have a cure yet, they're holding back. Cancer is a big industry. Big Pharma is milking it.
And now people are figuring out WHY THE COS position to the President DOES FCUKING MATTER. It matters a great deal. And here's the proof. too bad no one listened to us then.
lying sack
During the campaign, Obama made it perfectly clear that he opposed single-payer.
Didn't mean anything. The left stumped for Obama and ridiculed anyone who dared say "WTF?".
Deal with it.
you're in the same boat, that is to say the world. As the US goes, so goes the west.
And 'The Left' certainly did NOT 'stump' for Obama. I'm part of 'The Left' and not only did I NOT stump for Obama, I voted for someone else.
So shut your condescending piehole, asshat. Your St Ron Of Paul wold have this well fucked up too.
did the left ignore Obama's position of healthcare, it also ignored his having campaigned for Lieberman. It also ignored his position on "free trade". It ignored his position on Iran - which was militaristic. It ignored his vacillation about a date for getting out of Iraq. It ignored Obama's lowlife pandering to the religious right and homophobes.
I am speaking of blogs who consider themselves to be on the left - such as this one, Openleft, Talkleft, Daily Kos, Huffpo and the like.
It is hard to tell...
the blogs' fault. And Obama. And the left.
I'm not blaming Obama for being who he is.
But I wonder why he was promoted as someone different and brilliant.
And I also wonder how there was so much hostility from the Obama camp to anyone who questioned the credentials and believability of this candidate.
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Obama is whatever he is.
The left is responsible for going along with his zigzags and republican-Reagan-ass kissing politics and getting all excited about it and selling him as something other than what he is.
Now that Obama is in there, he is responsible for his behavior.
He should be held to account.
But the left is paying more attention to Limbaugh than Obama.
Freaks are freaks.
The question is: who puts them in power?
helps in what way?
We should stop looking to Obama for leadership.
We should pressure people who will be up for reelection.
We should field and elect candidates who represent our views.
... you know, things actually happen in between elections.
He is the president know, he is the one we should be putting the pressure on... not a hard concept to get.
I'll repeat it, slowly.
How does your shitty attitude help the situation you can't stop complaining about on the site?
are one insulting person, Ms. Kitty.
You are not obliged to read my opinions.
If John and the others choose to, they can delete my opinions and bar me from posting.
Obama's politics combined with the desperate condition we find ourselves in, does not inspire me to have a sunny attitude.
My attitude, as you put it, is really a point of view.
Helping the situation involves understanding how it came about.
How did we get stuck with this guy?
How were we made to feel that things would change?
That the war would end.
I think this is worth thinking about.
The reason I think so is that if we understand our behavior, we might act differently in the future. Understanding how we got railroaded into the Vietnam war might have prevented our getting railroaded in exactly the same fashion into the ongoing war in Iraq.
The only thing that might help at this point (since our democracy has been shredded by both major parties acting in concert) is to take to the streets as our Iranian brothers and sisters are doing.
Of course, Obama can always do what Bush did (as did Clinton). He can start bombing somebody or start another undeclared and unwarranted war. Then all the sheep will either rally 'round and shut up, or will finally stand up to slaughter and injustice.
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TeaEyeIs - Excuse us for wanting to believe in the person we voted for. I guess we should have all just said what's the point, picked something to get addicted to that was harmful for our health, then taken up bets on who would kill over first.
Obama speaking to the Illinois AFL-CIO, June 30, 2003.
“I happen to be a proponent of a single payer universal health care program.” (applause) “I see no reason why the United States of America, the wealthiest country in the history of the world, spending 14 percent of its Gross National Product on health care cannot provide basic health insurance to everybody. And that’s what Jim is talking about when he says everybody in, nobody out. A single payer health care plan, a universal health care plan. And that’s what I’d like to see. But as all of you know, we may not get there immediately. Because first we have to take back the White House, we have to take back the Senate, and we have to take back the House.”
You can even listen to the words come right out of his mouth. http://www.pnhp.org/news/2008/june/barack_oba...
what he said in 2003.
As you know, we took back the Senate and the House in 2006.
Now we have the presidency as well.
And we are no closer to single-payer than we were in 1993 let alone 2003.
Obama is not supporting it or pushing for it.
He has changed his tune.
Listen to his speech to the AMA.
What comes out of his mouth is what is put in front of his face.
Just got this in my inbox today. Maybe you've all already seen it, but it was new to me. Marcy Winograd is running in California to unseat Jane Harman. Her main platform item: single payer health care.
http://winograd4congress.com/petitions/single...
The only way we're going to get what we want is to light a fire under those turncoats in our own party (or, who purport to be of our own party, anyway).
We also need candidates with the courage to represent this point of view.
Without candidates with heart and brains, we have no one vote for and no way to register our feelings.
...it may not matter who runs anymore. The amount of money in the system has corrupted the dialog badly. Still, if a candidate is leading with this statement: "I'm for single payer. Period," that's at least a good sign--and one they might be held to account for later (like Obama in his senate bid in 2003).
If presidential elections can be fixed, and they certainly can be, then how hard is it to fix local elections? If a candidate is not corruptible and will not cooperate with the corporate "overlords," they will not be elected to office. Everyone who does not know this, catch up!
Jesse Ventura was elected.
Kucinich keeps being reelected.
Feingold has been elected.
We just need candidates who are genuinely progressive.
Real ones are easily distinguishable from slick bullshitters.
We should no longer settle for the latter.
If she wins, all this will be over before she gets into a position to help, so her position is likely opportunistic at best. Call me a cynic, but most of it is self-serving bullshit.
If she wins, I guess she could offer up some amendments that would never make it out of subcommittees for the simple fact that she would be a freshman in Congress.
Bottom line is that public campaign finance needs to be at the top of the political agenda. Incumbents should not be allowed to campaign fundraise for re-election. Instead, they will be given the same amount of money their opponent is able to raise. This will help keep special interests at bay and discourage their threats to pull donations from the candidates or political parties for not voting a certain way. I don't have a problem with the money being pulled, but what ends up happening is the special interests turn around and use that money to launch negative ads in hopes of getting them out of office.
The Physicians For National Care paper linked at 16:01 is worth keeping. It's not long, and even though written a couple of years ago, is quite relevant. I like its conclusion:
A shift from our complex and fragmented payment system to a simple single-payer approach could save about 14.3 percent
of total health spending—equivalent to $323 billion in 2007—on reimbursement-
driven bureaucracy (20). Such administrative savings are unattainable with lesser
reforms. A nonprofit national health insurance system could also curtail wasteful
over-investment in medical technology (e.g., the proliferation of new cardiac
care hospitals located near existing ones) and attenuate incentives for unnecessary
and even harmful care.
Powerful momentum for health reform is building. Previous reform efforts
that built on existing but defective insurance arrangements have quickly suc-
cumbed to their faulty economic logic. Added coverage meant added expense, on
top of already exorbitant costs. It would be shameful to squander the present
opportunity on yet another round of reforms that are politically realistic but
economically chimerical.
How is it there is so much spent on car insurance advertising and virtually nothing spent on health insurance. There are talking lizards, cavemen, checkout clerks, cartoon characters, zany guys, reasonable guys all kinds of commercials chasing my auto insurance dollars and yet nothing of the sort for health insurance even though the health insurance business rakes in billions in profits. Why?
Because its a rigged system.
two countries that allow Big Pharma to advertise drugs on television. or any where for that matter? No wonder they cost so much.
I'm not vary smart so will some one help me with this? How much money does the fed. spend a year on medicare/medicade? how much on V.A./military medical benifets? how much on subsidys to states public medical health plans? how much in tax right offs for hospitels that get stuck with unpayed E.R. and hospital stays? how much to individual states to pay for health care for the indigent? on and on adnauseam? Now how much do major corporations pay for employee benifets? and down the line to small business and then to the indiviual? so I guess what my main question is,is how much is payed out every year for health care? Now how much would it cost(approximately ofcourse) to provide single payer insurance for every one in the U.S.A.? One thought on how to come up with money to pay for a shortage of financing (now do'nt screem) is a "sin tax" say 5 cents on a soda,beer,bottle of wine,bag of chips ect. this would be a fair way to distriute the cost and if you did'nt want to pay just do'nt buy. Many people would be suprised if thay knew just how low my income is and yet I would be willing to pay this extra 5 cents to have the peace of mind knowing that my family,friends and fellow Americans do'nt have to worry about losing there life and/or every thing thay owen. I see so much waste with the current system, and I believe there is a way to get universal health coverage without the terror that the fear mongers are trying to sell us.
The Public Option-single payer--will never be implemented. After all the huff and puff and "Yes We Can" and "Change" nonsense, we will be stuck with them same evil, corrupt capitalist system we had before Obama brought "change" to our nation.
Why? Just consider the difference between the citizens of Iran and their lazy, stupid and obese counterparts and corrupt politicians in America. Where were the U.S. street demonstrations threatening violent revolution when the Republicans stole the election for Bush? How many patriotic members of the U.S. Congress slugged it out physically with the Republican traitors over the Bush coup, the Bush lies, the Bush war, Bush torture and Bush rape of the U.S. treasury and world economy? Zero.
Face it folks: The United States of America has lost its revolutionary fire. The fire that once burned in the hearts of our founders, the same white-hot flame that burns in the hearts of Iranians, was smothered long ago in America by the capitalist criminals who run our country--and we all cooperated with them, so our fate is well-deserved.
Nobody in the rest of the world has any use for America's evil brand of capitalism any more. The people of the world know that the USA is doomed and they're walking away from the wreckage. The U.S. dollar has been dumped on the world stage and our economy faces certain complete collapse. Obama means well and is exceptionally capable, but he lacks the fire and guts to confront America's ruling class head-on and do what must be done: destroy them. Complicating this cowardice is the fact that Obama gets no genuine support from Congressional Democrats, most of whom are tired, gutless, and corrupt old men. The Republicans in Congress are, of course, the enemy of the American people, so no help will ever come from them.
Young Americans: if you want a decent future and wish to remain here, learn Chinese. If you want a happier life, move to a European or Scandinavian nation and fully assimilate the language and culture. The United States of America is dead.
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Anyone remember that scumbag frist from Tennessee yeah the low life that was bleeding us try claiming in the course of doing business he didn't know he and his father where working with what was placed in blind trust. Now why can't the DOJ investigate congress and the Senate to see exactly what they are NOT doing to represent the people and exactly what they ARE doing for the special interest. My concern is the AMA and the Insurance companies blatantly tell Congress to its face you get sick we DROP you and Congress rolls over kisses them and says thank you dear. Where is the Representation of the PEOPLE. OH WELL CONGRESS mid terms is COMING.
This country needs to get off their comfortable back sides and start raising hell over health care. It is congress stopping it. Direct everything we have at all the congresspersons sitting on their backsides acting in defiance of Americans. We spend on wars we didn't want at the expense of our country, not the protection of our country. We Americans are always the last to be of any kind of concideration of this Congress. I am for single payer as the least expensive. I am for covering all of those that just can't afford care due to low pay or no jobs. I am furious with the Republicans, that have never shown anything for us the common folk. I am furious with the no b@lls democrats that show us no concideration or respect. We put these people in office and we should take them out of office. They are ignoring all of us. Health care for all will save everyone. We have lousy care if you compare to other countries not nearly as "rich" as us. How can that be when we spend more than any other country anyplace. This is horrible and the time has come to let this profession know we have had it with their high costs. I pay $278 for a 10 minute office visit to my doctor. I pay a co pay and then a bill after the insurance pays their "share" or what they concider their "share". I had to second mortage our house to just pay medical in one year. This is wrong. This after the insurance payment to all involved. So all of you, go after the congresspeople to pass Obama's plan and push for single payer. That idiot Montanian should go back to his backward state as he is not the man he once was. He has a state of poor people that have no medical. Yes, I have written him as my family lives in Montana. Let's start acting like "WE THE PEOPLE" AND STOP WHINNING. THIS IS OUR COUNTRY.
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