Published on Friday, September 12, 2008 by The Guardian/UK
The World's Verdict Will Be Harsh if the US Rejects the Man It Yearns For
An America that disdains Obama for his global support risks turning current anti-Bush feeling into something far worse
by Jonathan Freedland

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/09/12-1

"If Sarah Palin defies the conventional wisdom that says elections are determined by the top of the ticket, and somehow wins this for McCain, what will be the reaction? Yes, blue-state America will go into mourning once again, feeling estranged in its own country. A generation of young Americans - who back Obama in big numbers - will turn cynical, concluding that politics doesn't work after all. And, most depressing, many African-Americans will decide that if even Barack Obama - with all his conspicuous gifts - could not win, then no black man can ever be elected president.

But what of the rest of the world? This is the reaction I fear most. For Obama has stirred an excitement around the globe unmatched by any American politician in living memory. Polling in Germany, France, Britain and Russia shows that Obama would win by whopping majorities, with the pattern repeated in Africa, Asia, the Middle East and Latin America. If November 4 were a global ballot, Obama would win it handsomely. If the free world could choose its leader, it would be Barack Obama.

The crowd of 200,000 that rallied to hear him in Berlin in July did so not only because of his charisma, but also because they know he, like the majority of the world's population, opposed the Iraq war. McCain supported it, peddling the lie that Saddam was linked to 9/11. Non-Americans sense that Obama will not ride roughshod over the international system but will treat alliances and global institutions seriously: McCain wants to bypass the United Nations in favour of a US-friendly League of Democracies. McCain might talk a good game on climate change, but a repeated floor chant at the Republican convention was "Drill, baby, drill!", as if the solution to global warming were not a radical rethink of the US's entire energy system but more offshore oil rigs.

If Americans choose McCain, they will be turning their back on the rest of the world, choosing to show us four more years of the Bush-Cheney finger. And I predict a deeply unpleasant shift.

. . . . For America to make a decision as grave as this one - while the planet boils and with the US fighting two wars - on the trivial basis that a hockey mom is likable and seems down to earth, would be to convey a lack of seriousness, a fleeing from reality, that does indeed suggest a nation in, to quote Weisberg, "historical decline". Let's not forget, McCain's campaign manager boasts that this election is "not about the issues."

Of course I know that even to mention Obama's support around the world is to hurt him. Incredibly, that large Berlin crowd damaged Obama at home, branding him the "candidate of Europe" and making him seem less of a patriotic American. But what does that say about today's America, that the world's esteem is now unwanted? If Americans reject Obama, they will be sending the clearest possible message to the rest of us - and, make no mistake, we shall hear it."

Quick! Let's have a quick response by Obama and Biden, begun by 4 or 5 sentences on how AWSUM and HONRABLE John McCain is! That'll help!

Why do people act surprised? This is some seriously evil shit.

honestly folks, we CAN fight back! Here's how:

http://freewayblogger.blogspot.com/2008/09/these-are-signs-i-put-up-toda...

free speech - it's what they gave us to SAVE this country. we just gotta use it! the above was the work of ONE GUY in ONE DAY! imagine if there were more of us...

The only reason the reslugs have not been branded as a criminal/terrorist organization is because their bought and paid for minions are running the justice dept.

That has the stench of Rove written all over it. There's your pejorative: Rove.

Can we get audio of one (or more) of these calls?

Get it into the news cycle, and draw attention to it. That's the only way to counteract it.

In fact, if the Dems win Congress again, they should pass legislation making push polls illegal, so that the FBI can trace calls like that, and arrest and charge the people who are behind them. Push polling is not freedom of speech, it is sedition.

What was the next question? Would the lady be fearful of Obama if he had killed little puppies?

McCain is also sending out ads here in Florida and inside the ad are two little cards that his campaign encourages you to send in to receive an absentee ballot.

My husband and I are registered Democrats. This ad was addressed to my husband. One of the little cards has his return name and address on it, the other has no return name and address on it.

Had I been so inclined, I might well have sent the other little card in expecting that my name and return address was on it. The way I see that working is, had I signed the card, and given my birthday date as requested and proceeded to mail it, sans return address. I would have gone on record as requesting an absentee ballot, but in reality never received one. So when I went to the polls to vote, they would have me on record as requesting an absentee ballot therefore refusing to allow me to vote.

I don't know if this is my paranoia working overtime or what. I just have never received a political ad in the mail, encouraging me to vote via absentee ballot and also providing me with with an instrument to do so. Seems eerily strange to me, all things considered.

We should start our own push polling:

Would your opinion of John McCain change if you knew that he had surrendered military secrets to the North Vietnamese and confessed to war crimes?

Would your opinion of John McCain change if you knew that he had been unfaithful to his first wife on multiple occassion, including with his current wife?

Would your opinion of John McCain change if you knew that he had knowinglied about his record in Washington in order to advance his political ambition to be president?

The only difference is that all of the above are true!

John McCain - NOPE

Liberal AND Proud @ 9:

Karl looks like he's putting on weight. It would be tragedy if he suffered congestive heart failure.

Actually, it wouldnt.

no more proof needed that mccain and palin are bush and cheney all over again.

ChrisM70 @ 17:

sleazy.

You combine this with the ad placed by Google on this very website asking people, "Who's more likely to cheat: Obama or McCain?" and has a picture of them AND their wives suggesting a contest over who's more unfaithful, you have to wonder just how low can our political discourse go?

(BTW, I am not condemning C&L for this ad - I know that they have no control over which ads are placed on the site, I just found this ad VERY distasteful.)

Ma, Ma where's my pa?

....

Gone to the White House ha, ha, ha.

President Cleveland's rolling in his grave at the thought that this is low-level discourse.

Can you say President Todd Palin?

This smells of desperation. I myself, got one of those"Obsession" C.D's in my newspapers. If American's are going to fooled by the 'FEAR' card again, than God save us all.

if this surprises you then haven't been doing this long.

what the fuck did you expect? the corporate whore party has no plan and no clue. did you think they would just sit on thier hands?

The Corporate Right is trying to create a permanent Republican one-party state in America. The rest of the world may shake their heads in disgust if McCain wins, without realizing that they're next in line. The Republicans are positioning themselves to claim that a McCain win is due to "voting booth racism," when in fact it will be due to rigged voting machine results.

The next step after a stolen election will be revolution.

Robert Broughton @ 27:

They're desperate. They know they will be prosecuted for war crimes if they lose.

We can only hope, or perhaps some other nation will pick them up like they did to Pinochet.
By the way, are you from S. Florida?

CMINCA @ 2:

Published on Friday, September 12, 2008 by The Guardian/UK
The World's Verdict Will Be Harsh if the US Rejects the Man It Yearns For
An America that disdains Obama for his global support risks turning current anti-Bush feeling into something far worse
by Jonathan Freedland

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/09/12-1

"If Sarah Palin defies the conventional wisdom that says elections are determined by the top of the ticket, and somehow wins this for McCain, what will be the reaction? Yes, blue-state America will go into mourning once again, feeling estranged in its own country. A generation of young Americans - who back Obama in big numbers - will turn cynical, concluding that politics doesn't work after all. And, most depressing, many African-Americans will decide that if even Barack Obama - with all his conspicuous gifts - could not win, then no black man can ever be elected president.

But what of the rest of the world? This is the reaction I fear most. For Obama has stirred an excitement around the globe unmatched by any American politician in living memory. Polling in Germany, France, Britain and Russia shows that Obama would win by whopping majorities, with the pattern repeated in Africa, Asia, the Middle East and Latin America. If November 4 were a global ballot, Obama would win it handsomely. If the free world could choose its leader, it would be Barack Obama.

The crowd of 200,000 that rallied to hear him in Berlin in July did so not only because of his charisma, but also because they know he, like the majority of the world's population, opposed the Iraq war. McCain supported it, peddling the lie that Saddam was linked to 9/11. Non-Americans sense that Obama will not ride roughshod over the international system but will treat alliances and global institutions seriously: McCain wants to bypass the United Nations in favour of a US-friendly League of Democracies. McCain might talk a good game on climate change, but a repeated floor chant at the Republican convention was "Drill, baby, drill!", as if the solution to global warming were not a radical rethink of the US's entire energy system but more offshore oil rigs.

If Americans choose McCain, they will be turning their back on the rest of the world, choosing to show us four more years of the Bush-Cheney finger. And I predict a deeply unpleasant shift.

. . . . For America to make a decision as grave as this one - while the planet boils and with the US fighting two wars - on the trivial basis that a hockey mom is likable and seems down to earth, would be to convey a lack of seriousness, a fleeing from reality, that does indeed suggest a nation in, to quote Weisberg, "historical decline". Let's not forget, McCain's campaign manager boasts that this election is "not about the issues."

Of course I know that even to mention Obama's support around the world is to hurt him. Incredibly, that large Berlin crowd damaged Obama at home, branding him the "candidate of Europe" and making him seem less of a patriotic American. But what does that say about today's America, that the world's esteem is now unwanted? If Americans reject Obama, they will be sending the clearest possible message to the rest of us - and, make no mistake, we shall hear it."

And that's why i'm pretty ambivalent toward the outcome of this election. An Obama presidency would be a total turn to the left, would prolly begin a new era in which, hopefully, either the democratic party would be purged of it's "centrist" & take on the role of a true workers party or permissive liberalism would lead to the growth & expansion of third parties.
A McCain-Palin presidency would be a clarion call to world revolution. The exploitive powers would be so concentrated & so obvious for all to see the entire world proletariat would be united against a common enemy.

This is the win at any cost, wedge issue and push polling used to denigrate and smear Obama. This is the accepted route for the repigs. This is what they do. They go after the "low information voter" ie the "sheeple" with lies. Knowing that the MSM will not respond forcefully because they have all been corrupted and co-opted into the repig worldview and knowing that counterpunch ads from Obama have, so far, been ineffectual. Welcome to american politics in the 21st century. The repigs know that the Authoritarian followers will believe whatever McCain puts out. McCain, who used to be an honerable man has let ambition and greed for power totally blind himself to what he did when he accepted Rove and company into his campaign. He could very well win by just ignoring the last 8 years as if they never happened. The MSM will not-as a whole-expose the lies, so McCain and Palin will continue to tell them. They will cry victim at every turn thus making the media an accessory to his campaign. God help us if he wins. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

John J @ 35:

What makes people vote Republican?

What makes people vote Republican? Why in particular do working class and rural Americans usually vote for pro-business Republicans when their economic interests would seem better served by Democratic policies? We psychologists have been examining the origins of ideology ever since Hitler sent us Germany's best psychologists, and we long ago reported that strict parenting and a variety of personal insecurities work together to turn people against liberalism, diversity, and progress. But now that we can map the brains, genes, and unconscious attitudes of conservatives, we have refined our diagnosis: conservatism is a partially heritable personality trait that predisposes some people to be cognitively inflexible, fond of hierarchy, and inordinately afraid of uncertainty, change, and death. People vote Republican because Republicans offer "moral clarity"—a simple vision of good and evil that activates deep seated fears in much of the electorate. Democrats, in contrast, appeal to reason with their long-winded explorations of policy options for a complex world.

For Confused Liberals

IOTW, they disagree with us because it's in their genes. Political disagreement must be genetic.

I call Godwin and state that a Mr. Adolf Hitler would have agreed with you when he funneled his political opponents into the gas chambers.

This is Europe calling. If McCain and the GOP steal this election, America will become a pariah nation in the eyes of the world. Not just misguided. Not just unfortunate. Irredeemably fucking stupid, greedy and evil!

Get this straight once and for all. We do not hate America. We loathe and despise BushCo and the neo-cons. And now it's time for you to give a damn. Get up off your asses and take your country back from these sleazebag criminals. Your freedom and our fervent desire for a peaceful world are what's at stake here.

Empirical America will evolve with John McCain going into office 1/20/09. We better begin stockpiling weapons for the revolution, because it will be bloody.

Surging Blue Lensman @ 45:

No explanation as to why Obama gave the PLO money???

No explanation because there is no validity to the statement. It is a republican LIE!

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 44:

John J @ 35:

What makes people vote Republican?

What makes people vote Republican? Why in particular do working class and rural Americans usually vote for pro-business Republicans when their economic interests would seem better served by Democratic policies? We psychologists have been examining the origins of ideology ever since Hitler sent us Germany's best psychologists, and we long ago reported that strict parenting and a variety of personal insecurities work together to turn people against liberalism, diversity, and progress. But now that we can map the brains, genes, and unconscious attitudes of conservatives, we have refined our diagnosis: conservatism is a partially heritable personality trait that predisposes some people to be cognitively inflexible, fond of hierarchy, and inordinately afraid of uncertainty, change, and death. People vote Republican because Republicans offer "moral clarity"—a simple vision of good and evil that activates deep seated fears in much of the electorate. Democrats, in contrast, appeal to reason with their long-winded explorations of policy options for a complex world.

For Confused Liberals

IOTW, they disagree with us because it's in their genes. Political disagreement must be genetic.

I call Godwin and state that a Mr. Adolf Hitler would have agreed with you when he funneled his political opponents into the gas chambers.

Q: Why are you a republican?

A: Because it’s easier than thinking for myself.
A: Because Jesus wears an American flag lapel pin.
A: Because gays in the military take the dignity out of killing (h.t. to “askarepublican.com”)
A: That little kid in the Bruce Willis movie sees dead people; I see stem cells.
A: Because the Constitution is for pussies.
A: Because the Democrats for the most part have zero testicular fortitude (O.K. That one’s true).
A: Because the only good immigrant is the one cleaning my pool.
A: Because I might have to vote for a black man for president otherwise.
A: Because I love that other people’s kids die for my right to call anyone who disagrees with me unpatriotic.
A: Because the terrorists want to sue the telecomms.
A: Because unless you plan on marrying him, little boy sex ROCKS.
A: Because nothing keeps you warm at night like being tightly wrapped up in the American flag while burning the Bill of Rights.

The PLO?? I thought we all were supposed to be supporting the PLO and hating Hamas now.
Why not Hamas? Maybe they thought they wouldn't be able to get away with that one.

This is odd.

McSame is LEADING in FLorida by about 5 or 6 points the last time I looked. You'd think they would do this in Michigan or Virginia or Colorado where Obama is doing a bit better.

Karl Rove is losing his magic touch I think.

The push polling is likely being done by the same people who sent emails throughout the Jewish community saying that Obama hates Israel and that he is a Muslim. I cannot tell you how many of my parents' friends - located in Florida, Pennsylvania, etc... - received those emails and believed them! Do not underestimate these people - they are evil and will do whatever they have to in order to win. They cannot run on the issues since they do not have anything to run on - other than Obama's race.

upchuck @ 47:

Politics is all about power and control. It's a dog eat dog world at the top; you do not get to the top by being nice or playing fair. I don't understand why the Democrats are afraid to run the Keating 5 adds. We have a major banking scandal unfolding. Timing is everything and it doesn't get any better than this.

your absolutely right. i appreciate taking the high
road but winning is everything right now. with these
financial institutions getting bailed out and going under
maybe telling the keating five is good timing.

Speaking as a Canadian, you Americans who always vote down party lines, always voting for whichever party your "Gran-pappy" voted for, you really scare me. Seriously consider where the candidate stands on the real issues. Demand that your media ask real questions and get real answers. You people are like the very drunk guy that wants to drive home drunk and won't listen to anyone else who's trying to get the keys out of your hand. Stop making stupid decisions while you're so intoxicated. It's like you've been intoxicated with fear since 9/11. The whole country has not been able to think straight since then.

Roger Stone much?

I wish the NVA had kept him.

enough with the whining. THIS IS WHY THE REPUGS WIN. They fight dirty. The only way to counter is too fight back. Restart the mccain black baby rumors is the only answer. People are stupid enough to believe anything. If this seems beneath the dems to do this. fine. Enjoy a McCain presidency. Fight or lose.

kasinca @ 61:

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 49:

Joe Schmo @ 46:

This is Europe calling. If McCain and the GOP steal this election, America will become a pariah nation in the eyes of the world. Not just misguided. Not just unfortunate. Irredeemably fucking stupid, greedy and evil!

Heh, quite a lot of nerve you assholes have in criticizing us considering that we and the Russians had to bail you out of the mess you got into with the Fuhrer. The Russians saved ya'll's bacon militarily, we did it economically.

And now you assholes run scared of Russia and you run scared of us too.

Stop with the self righeousness. He is telling us to wake up and fight back. What you defend blindly is destroying the country that bailed Europe out. No nation goes down from attacks from the Hunns. Nations perish from within. Look at the headlines. We are sinking fast from the leadership of the GOP and McSame is lying at will and morons are believing him and voting against their own self interest. Waving a flag as if you are a cheerleader is insanity. This is about our existence. We must stand up to the fascists in the GOP and defeat them at all levels and that means throwing bums like McSame out of office. I am a Vietnam Veteran and I could give a sh*t less about his service. Hell that was forty years ago. What damage has he and his party of deregulators done our country in the forty years subsequent to his POW status. Wake up!

No nation goes down from the Huns?

What happened to the Roman Empire, then?

All I'm stating is that he's got a lot of balls for stating that Europe considers America stupid and greedy and evil when it took the US and the USSR to bail it out. Without either of those two countries, he'd likely be either dead or a willing servant of the current Fuhrer of the Greater Germanic Empire.

I think the GOP is a disaster. I don't, however, dehumanize them and their rank-and-file. I'm a better human being than that.

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 5:

CMINCA @ 2:

Published on Friday, September 12, 2008 by The Guardian/UK
The World's Verdict Will Be Harsh if the US Rejects the Man It Yearns For
An America that disdains Obama for his global support risks turning current anti-Bush feeling into something far worse
by Jonathan Freedland

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/09/12-1

"If Sarah Palin defies the conventional wisdom that says elections are determined by the top of the ticket, and somehow wins this for McCain, what will be the reaction? Yes, blue-state America will go into mourning once again, feeling estranged in its own country. A generation of young Americans - who back Obama in big numbers - will turn cynical, concluding that politics doesn't work after all. And, most depressing, many African-Americans will decide that if even Barack Obama - with all his conspicuous gifts - could not win, then no black man can ever be elected president.

But what of the rest of the world? This is the reaction I fear most. For Obama has stirred an excitement around the globe unmatched by any American politician in living memory. Polling in Germany, France, Britain and Russia shows that Obama would win by whopping majorities, with the pattern repeated in Africa, Asia, the Middle East and Latin America. If November 4 were a global ballot, Obama would win it handsomely. If the free world could choose its leader, it would be Barack Obama.

The crowd of 200,000 that rallied to hear him in Berlin in July did so not only because of his charisma, but also because they know he, like the majority of the world's population, opposed the Iraq war. McCain supported it, peddling the lie that Saddam was linked to 9/11. Non-Americans sense that Obama will not ride roughshod over the international system but will treat alliances and global institutions seriously: McCain wants to bypass the United Nations in favour of a US-friendly League of Democracies. McCain might talk a good game on climate change, but a repeated floor chant at the Republican convention was "Drill, baby, drill!", as if the solution to global warming were not a radical rethink of the US's entire energy system but more offshore oil rigs.

If Americans choose McCain, they will be turning their back on the rest of the world, choosing to show us four more years of the Bush-Cheney finger. And I predict a deeply unpleasant shift.

. . . . For America to make a decision as grave as this one - while the planet boils and with the US fighting two wars - on the trivial basis that a hockey mom is likable and seems down to earth, would be to convey a lack of seriousness, a fleeing from reality, that does indeed suggest a nation in, to quote Weisberg, "historical decline". Let's not forget, McCain's campaign manager boasts that this election is "not about the issues."

Of course I know that even to mention Obama's support around the world is to hurt him. Incredibly, that large Berlin crowd damaged Obama at home, branding him the "candidate of Europe" and making him seem less of a patriotic American. But what does that say about today's America, that the world's esteem is now unwanted? If Americans reject Obama, they will be sending the clearest possible message to the rest of us - and, make no mistake, we shall hear it."

Didn't we form our own damn country the last time someone else tried to tell the colonials what to do?

Real smart move that SOB made.

It is this mentality that keeps us in the dark ages. Do you not understand what the leader of the free world means? Or do you not consider international relations important? I suppose being a perpetual war maverick is preferred over international diplomacy and peace. The world is stunned at how gullible and stupid Americans are and you continue to prove this point with this post.

-
The MSM is the key

They obviously love bad presidents, bad policies, and bad news....it's their bread and butter. Why do you think little cutie and rightwing shill Contessa Brewer shows a McCain ad without mentioning all the lies in it ?
-

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 63:

♠♠...Bangkok Bob...♠♠ @ 52:

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 44:

John J @ 35:

IOTW, they disagree with us because it's in their genes. Political disagreement must be genetic.

I call Godwin and state that a Mr. Adolf Hitler would have agreed with you when he funneled his political opponents into the gas chambers.

Q: Why are you a republican?

A: Because it’s easier than thinking for myself.
A: Because Jesus wears an American flag lapel pin.
A: Because gays in the military take the dignity out of killing (h.t. to “askarepublican.com”)
A: That little kid in the Bruce Willis movie sees dead people; I see stem cells.
A: Because the Constitution is for pussies.
A: Because the Democrats for the most part have zero testicular fortitude (O.K. That one’s true).
A: Because the only good immigrant is the one cleaning my pool.
A: Because I might have to vote for a black man for president otherwise.
A: Because I love that other people’s kids die for my right to call anyone who disagrees with me unpatriotic.
A: Because the terrorists want to sue the telecomms.
A: Because unless you plan on marrying him, little boy sex ROCKS.
A: Because nothing keeps you warm at night like being tightly wrapped up in the American flag while burning the Bill of Rights.

There's a difference between racist politics and stating that people cannot disagree with you except that their genes make them do it. By that standard, I should be pushing for McCain, my parents are dittoheads.

I'm on here and I consider McCain to be the best of an inadequate bunch, and worth bumpkiss to meet everything coming at the US over the next four years. That idea, that conservatism is genetic, is little different from National Socialist ideas that Communism was a genetic trait of Jews, except the names of the political parties differ.

You want to explain how saying that Joe Sixpack Republican is a Republican because he's genetically programmed to be that way is different from Heinrich Sixpack Nazi stating that his Jewish neighbor is a Communist because he was genetically programmed to be that way?

There is nothing conservative about what the GOP has done to this country in the past twenty eight years. It is more radical and extreme. How can any thinking person look at John Alzheimer's stricken McSame, listen to what he has said, and think he is the best choice for anything. Look at what is happening as a result of Reaganomics at this very moment. John McSame needs to sent to an Old Folks home and immediately. The PTA Mom needs to go back to Alaska and start raising her family.

We have problems in this world and they stem from stupid people who are gullible enough to think fascism in conservative.

I never thought I say this, but McCain is worse than Bush

God help you all if this awful person gets into office

Hero my A--

JudyLou @ 12:

That has the stench of Rove written all over it. There's your pejorative: Rove.

No amount of lipstick could disguise that pig.

Do these callers also mention that John McCain has a black baby. Oops, sorry, wrong year, wrong smear.

kasinca @ 76:

There is nothing conservative about what the GOP has done to this country in the past twenty eight years. It is more radical and extreme. How can any thinking person look at John Alzheimer's stricken McSame, listen to what he has said, and think he is the best choice for anything. Look at what is happening as a result of Reaganomics at this very moment. John McSame needs to sent to an Old Folks home and immediately. The PTA Mom needs to go back to Alaska and start raising her family.

We have problems in this world and they stem from stupid people who are gullible enough to think fascism in conservative.

That I can agree with. But stating that the very fiber that sustains living beings, their genes makes for political disagreement is pseudoNazi at its mildest. I disagree with Republicans, and they are wrong at this time, they were right, once, but that time has long-since vanished.

I will NOT condone stating that someone can just disagree with me because genetics makes it so.

constituent @ 73:

maybe they could get old mayor ed koch of the t.v
with a public service ad about voting and offensive
phone calls. i believe he is for obama.

He is, but I think he changed after seeing the tactics McCain uses.

Rosanne @ 33:

JudyLou @ 12:

That has the stench of Rove written all over it. There's your pejorative: Rove.

Actually, there is a blog on huffpo from rove saying that insanemccain's ads have gone too far! How about that, even piggyboy thinks insanemccain has gone too far! I guess he's pissed that the apprentice has far exceeded the master.

This is a ploy to keep people off his back. You know he is the diabolical mastermind behind all of this shite. Rove and his minions.

John J @ 35:

What makes people vote Republican?

What makes people vote Republican? Why in particular do working class and rural Americans usually vote for pro-business Republicans when their economic interests would seem better served by Democratic policies? We psychologists have been examining the origins of ideology ever since Hitler sent us Germany's best psychologists, and we long ago reported that strict parenting and a variety of personal insecurities work together to turn people against liberalism, diversity, and progress. But now that we can map the brains, genes, and unconscious attitudes of conservatives, we have refined our diagnosis: conservatism is a partially heritable personality trait that predisposes some people to be cognitively inflexible, fond of hierarchy, and inordinately afraid of uncertainty, change, and death. People vote Republican because Republicans offer "moral clarity"—a simple vision of good and evil that activates deep seated fears in much of the electorate. Democrats, in contrast, appeal to reason with their long-winded explorations of policy options for a complex world.

For Confused Liberals

Sounds like "simple is as simple does".

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 49:

Joe Schmo @ 46:

This is Europe calling. If McCain and the GOP steal this election, America will become a pariah nation in the eyes of the world. Not just misguided. Not just unfortunate. Irredeemably fucking stupid, greedy and evil!

Get this straight once and for all. We do not hate America. We loathe and despise BushCo and the neo-cons. And now it's time for you to give a damn. Get up off your asses and take your country back from these sleazebag criminals. Your freedom and our fervent desire for a peaceful world are what's at stake here.

Heh, quite a lot of nerve you assholes have in criticizing us considering that we and the Russians had to bail you out of the mess you got into with the Fuhrer. The Russians saved ya'll's bacon militarily, we did it economically.

And now you assholes run scared of Russia and you run scared of us too.

General...that's gotta be about the dumbest thing I've heard you say. Usually I tend to agree with ya. But I gotta call ya out on this..
Are we above criticism? Are we above ANYTHING at this point?
This is the lowest point in American history...this country is at a crossroads...
one path is to certain death...the other...a brighter, more peaceful, enlightened future.
Which way do you want to go?

Joe Schmo @ 46:

This is Europe calling. If McCain and the GOP steal this election, America will become a pariah nation in the eyes of the world. Not just misguided. Not just unfortunate. Irredeemably fucking stupid, greedy and evil!

Get this straight once and for all. We do not hate America. We loathe and despise BushCo and the neo-cons. And now it's time for you to give a damn. Get up off your asses and take your country back from these sleazebag criminals. Your freedom and our fervent desire for a peaceful world are what's at stake here.

Agreed! See the link in my post at #2.

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 49:

Joe Schmo @ 46:

This is Europe calling. If McCain and the GOP steal this election, America will become a pariah nation in the eyes of the world. Not just misguided. Not just unfortunate. Irredeemably fucking stupid, greedy and evil!

Get this straight once and for all. We do not hate America. We loathe and despise BushCo and the neo-cons. And now it's time for you to give a damn. Get up off your asses and take your country back from these sleazebag criminals. Your freedom and our fervent desire for a peaceful world are what's at stake here.

Heh, quite a lot of nerve you assholes have in criticizing us considering that we and the Russians had to bail you out of the mess you got into with the Fuhrer. The Russians saved ya'll's bacon militarily, we did it economically.

And now you assholes run scared of Russia and you run scared of us too.

What revisionary Republican history book are reading from, or are you just spewing it up as you go along? Some fucking bail out we in the UK got from the USA. You gave us nothing for free. It took 61 years to pay off our war debt to the USA. The Russians bailed out everyone's asses, yours included, by bleeding Germany dry of manpower and resources. And they paid for it with 26 million dead. You're a fucking disgrace to the memory of the greatest generation America has ever had. You betray everything they stood for, everything they fought and died for. You're now a country that tortures suspected enemies without trial, spies on its own citizens, reveals the identity of its own CIA operatives (Plame) for political expediency, and invades sovereign nations under false pretences. So much for the Land of the Brave, Home of the Free. Land of the Depraved, Home of Cheney's chickenhawk war profiteers more like. Shame on you, Mr Conservative Asshole. You're the traitor now. A traitor to your country's once proud and worthy ideals.

liberalNmoderation @ 90:

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 49:

Joe Schmo @ 46:

This is Europe calling. If McCain and the GOP steal this election, America will become a pariah nation in the eyes of the world. Not just misguided. Not just unfortunate. Irredeemably fucking stupid, greedy and evil!

Get this straight once and for all. We do not hate America. We loathe and despise BushCo and the neo-cons. And now it's time for you to give a damn. Get up off your asses and take your country back from these sleazebag criminals. Your freedom and our fervent desire for a peaceful world are what's at stake here.

Heh, quite a lot of nerve you assholes have in criticizing us considering that we and the Russians had to bail you out of the mess you got into with the Fuhrer. The Russians saved ya'll's bacon militarily, we did it economically.

And now you assholes run scared of Russia and you run scared of us too.

General...that's gotta be about the dumbest thing I've heard you say. Usually I tend to agree with ya. But I gotta call ya out on this..
Are we above criticism? Are we above ANYTHING at this point?
This is the lowest point in American history...this country is at a crossroads...
one path is to certain death...the other...a brighter, more peaceful, enlightened future.
Which way do you want to go?

I'd like to see that brighter, more enlightened future.

As it is, the most likely scenario is we keep doing what we're doing, it all collapses, and billions die of starvation shortly thereafter. Not pleasant, but I'm going by the trends. No Democrat can fix this country in 10 years without Stalinesque inhumanity and willingness to murder millions by state Terror. Stalin modernized Russia by terror, and by doing that, became the savior of Europe. We've no such ruthless man of foresight.

I'd like a modernized US, but we'll likely end up getting dragged into 476 all over again. God help us if the Church survives the coming collapse again.

♠♠...Bangkok Bob...♠♠ @ 52:

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 44:

John J @ 35:

What makes people vote Republican?

What makes people vote Republican? Why in particular do working class and rural Americans usually vote for pro-business Republicans when their economic interests would seem better served by Democratic policies? We psychologists have been examining the origins of ideology ever since Hitler sent us Germany's best psychologists, and we long ago reported that strict parenting and a variety of personal insecurities work together to turn people against liberalism, diversity, and progress. But now that we can map the brains, genes, and unconscious attitudes of conservatives, we have refined our diagnosis: conservatism is a partially heritable personality trait that predisposes some people to be cognitively inflexible, fond of hierarchy, and inordinately afraid of uncertainty, change, and death. People vote Republican because Republicans offer "moral clarity"—a simple vision of good and evil that activates deep seated fears in much of the electorate. Democrats, in contrast, appeal to reason with their long-winded explorations of policy options for a complex world.

For Confused Liberals

IOTW, they disagree with us because it's in their genes. Political disagreement must be genetic.

I call Godwin and state that a Mr. Adolf Hitler would have agreed with you when he funneled his political opponents into the gas chambers.

Q: Why are you a republican?

A: Because it’s easier than thinking for myself.
A: Because Jesus wears an American flag lapel pin.
A: Because gays in the military take the dignity out of killing (h.t. to “askarepublican.com”)
A: That little kid in the Bruce Willis movie sees dead people; I see stem cells.
A: Because the Constitution is for pussies.
A: Because the Democrats for the most part have zero testicular fortitude (O.K. That one’s true).
A: Because the only good immigrant is the one cleaning my pool.
A: Because I might have to vote for a black man for president otherwise.
A: Because I love that other people’s kids die for my right to call anyone who disagrees with me unpatriotic.
A: Because the terrorists want to sue the telecomms.
A: Because unless you plan on marrying him, little boy sex ROCKS.
A: Because nothing keeps you warm at night like being tightly wrapped up in the American flag while burning the Bill of Rights.

Great list. If I may add one, "If we don't fight them there; we'll have to fight them over here."

How did Rove get linked to this? It looks like an assumption on everyone's part. It's why democrats continue to lose national elections. Blaming others for your own failures.

CMINCA @ 2:

Published on Friday, September 12, 2008 by The Guardian/UK
The World's Verdict Will Be Harsh if the US Rejects the Man It Yearns For
An America that disdains Obama for his global support risks turning current anti-Bush feeling into something far worse
by Jonathan Freedland

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/09/12-1

Sadly, to the arrested adolescent Bush-30%ers, actually being LIKED by people in other countries is a sign of "weakness," and the more people that hate us the better. They're easy to spot. They were usually the sulking kids that ticked the "feared" box in high school guidence class, when they were asked "would you rather be loved or feared." It usually stems from a profound sense of insecurity.

Since reverse psychology works pretty well on these people, if somebody in Britain says they would make the rest of the world happy by voting for Obama, they'll go out of their way to vote for McCain. But most were going to do that anyway, so the article will only cause the ones who were so bitter that they were going to stay home on election day to go out and vote for McCain/Palin just for spite.

The Republicans have always done pretty well with the "spite vote." Spite the elitist liberal media. Spite the rest of the world who look down on us like we're a bunch of dumbasses. Works pretty well. I remember in 1979 when the Iranians announced that Americans should vote for Carter because he would be more likely to be reasonable. Naturally, the 30%ers went straight out and voted for Reagan out of spite. Seven years later, Reagan and North were selling arms to Iran.

Lloyd @ 62:

Speaking as a Canadian, you Americans who always vote down party lines, always voting for whichever party your "Gran-pappy" voted for, you really scare me. Seriously consider where the candidate stands on the real issues. Demand that your media ask real questions and get real answers. You people are like the very drunk guy that wants to drive home drunk and won't listen to anyone else who's trying to get the keys out of your hand. Stop making stupid decisions while you're so intoxicated. It's like you've been intoxicated with fear since 9/11. The whole country has not been able to think straight since then.

You are so right and this applies to a lot of people in America. I'm an independent and I do vote on the issues. If you notice, a lot of people on this blog are critical of Republicans and Democrats. That is one thing about the Dems, they do not have that blind faith loyalty to their party. The Republicans, on the other hand have fostered it, and people cling to them unquestioningly. I find that to be such a scary phemonena. I don't understand it at all. To me, the "tell me how to think" clan have already given up most of their freedom or are either just too intellectually lazy or too tired to care.

I think if McCain gets elected that the other country would attack us, and leave us open for an assault from everyone. If you follow history, and see all the steps we have taken to the road of Fascism, then you would know that in the end it wasn't a revolution from within, but a major assault from the outside that save the people from within. Instead of nipping Fascism at the bud, we would have let it grow too big to warrant a major war. Even some redneck I know have switch to Obama and recognize that this election is the turning point for our nation.

Americans need to speak up. They must tell everything they know about these creeps from Congress Avenue in Austin, Texas. Scottie left out a few things.

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 70:

kasinca @ 61:

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 49:

Joe Schmo @ 46:

Stop with the self righeousness. He is telling us to wake up and fight back. What you defend blindly is destroying the country that bailed Europe out. No nation goes down from attacks from the Hunns. Nations perish from within. Look at the headlines. We are sinking fast from the leadership of the GOP and McSame is lying at will and morons are believing him and voting against their own self interest. Waving a flag as if you are a cheerleader is insanity. This is about our existence. We must stand up to the fascists in the GOP and defeat them at all levels and that means throwing bums like McSame out of office. I am a Vietnam Veteran and I could give a sh*t less about his service. Hell that was forty years ago. What damage has he and his party of deregulators done our country in the forty years subsequent to his POW status. Wake up!

No nation goes down from the Huns?

What happened to the Roman Empire, then?

All I'm stating is that he's got a lot of balls for stating that Europe considers America stupid and greedy and evil when it took the US and the USSR to bail it out. Without either of those two countries, he'd likely be either dead or a willing servant of the current Fuhrer of the Greater Germanic Empire.

I think the GOP is a disaster. I don't, however, dehumanize them and their rank-and-file. I'm a better human being than that.

Why is it that just because a country was once your ally that you are not supposed to speak truth to power. I think most Americans are good people, but I also believe that America is stupid and greedy. Take a look around for f*** sake. Are you kidding. That's supposed to be your argument.

liberalNmoderation @ 105:

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 70:

kasinca @ 61:

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 49:

Stop with the self righeousness. He is telling us to wake up and fight back. What you defend blindly is destroying the country that bailed Europe out. No nation goes down from attacks from the Hunns. Nations perish from within. Look at the headlines. We are sinking fast from the leadership of the GOP and McSame is lying at will and morons are believing him and voting against their own self interest. Waving a flag as if you are a cheerleader is insanity. This is about our existence. We must stand up to the fascists in the GOP and defeat them at all levels and that means throwing bums like McSame out of office. I am a Vietnam Veteran and I could give a sh*t less about his service. Hell that was forty years ago. What damage has he and his party of deregulators done our country in the forty years subsequent to his POW status. Wake up!

No nation goes down from the Huns?

What happened to the Roman Empire, then?

All I'm stating is that he's got a lot of balls for stating that Europe considers America stupid and greedy and evil when it took the US and the USSR to bail it out. Without either of those two countries, he'd likely be either dead or a willing servant of the current Fuhrer of the Greater Germanic Empire.

I think the GOP is a disaster. I don't, however, dehumanize them and their rank-and-file. I'm a better human being than that.

The Roman Empire was spread too far, and too thin (sound familiar?), the Huns sacked Rome, as did the Vandals, the Visigoths and some other group I can't remember right now. They pillaged, raped and plundered...but Rome was already in decline when the Huns invaded.
The Huns were the final nail in the coffin for Rome, but not the direct cause of the fall of Rome.

And why get defensive General? He's just stating what is. Sure...we did save Europe over 60 years ago...but they're not the same Europe now...just as we aren't the same USA...They are our friends, allies...and in ALOT of cases... our distant relatives.
Maybe instead of dismissing their advice out of hand, by replying with a rebuttal, that honestly, sounds like something an ignorant redneck republican would say ( and you ain't that General)...we should listen...and take heed what the rest of the world thinks.

No. We did not save Europe. The Soviets were the ones who did most of the work in terms of loss of lives and in terms of actual, bona fide defeats of the Wehrmacht. The Soviets' role has been forgotten too much.

I'd honestly like to hear what the rest of the planet has to say. Unfortunately, the ones I'd most like to hear from are ignored by the MSM, the voices of the Muslims in the Middle East who are both valuing Islamic traditions, and opposed to Bin Laden. I would also like to hear from other parts of Asia, from Africa, and especially from our neighbors in South America.

That article came from the United Kingdom. I'm not in the best of moods related to the United Kingdom, not since they replaced a mild disaster like Blair with a catastrophe like Brown. What do the people in South America or the Islamic world as a whole, or in the Republic of India think? You know, the ones who are often not given a chance to speak?

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 77:

CMINCA @ 72:

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 5:

CMINCA @ 2:

Didn't we form our own damn country the last time someone else tried to tell the colonials what to do?

Real smart move that SOB made.

It is this mentality that keeps us in the dark ages. Do you not understand what the leader of the free world means? Or do you not consider international relations important? I suppose being a perpetual war maverick is preferred over international diplomacy and peace. The world is stunned at how gullible and stupid Americans are and you continue to prove this point with this post.

Yes, because a Brit from the country that elected Gordon Dipshit Brown is entitled to tell Americans who to vote for.

My ass. The Brits are in no position to criticize so long as PM Turdblossom is still in office.

Where are you getting this from. No one is telling America who to vote for. They are just saying that the choice should be clear. They cannot believe how this election is playing out and they KNOW there will be ramifications. America has lost most of its standing in the world. This will be the remainder. It is just pure ignorance to believe that international relations mean nothing. Do you not understand what a world economy means. This is the problem with people who live in a Republican bubble; they have no concept of what the world is like outside of the U.S. Unbelievable. We're truly screwed.

Joe Schmo @ 46:

This is Europe calling. If McCain and the GOP steal this election, America will become a pariah nation in the eyes of the world. Not just misguided. Not just unfortunate. Irredeemably fucking stupid, greedy and evil!

Get this straight once and for all. We do not hate America. We loathe and despise BushCo and the neo-cons. And now it's time for you to give a damn. Get up off your asses and take your country back from these sleazebag criminals. Your freedom and our fervent desire for a peaceful world are what's at stake here.

We're on it, Joe. We the real citizens of the US won't give up fighting the fake citizens (Like those die-hard Bush supporters) every step of the way until we get this ship righted and their dirty hands out of our (and your) affairs.

The Roman empire lasted 400 years.
Hitler's Third Reich lasted 12 years.
America is doomed.

kit wilson @ 118:

The Roman empire lasted 400 years.
Hitler's Third Reich lasted 12 years.
America is doomed.

118 years of sovereignty over our empire ain't shabby. We've beaten both the Soviets and the Nazis.

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 117:

The United States is doomed in 100 years anyhow, to fall into some sort of autocracy. Why should I honestly give a damn...

100 years? Dude, seriously, look around you. You're almost there already.

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 44:

John J @ 35:

What makes people vote Republican?

What makes people vote Republican? Why in particular do working class and rural Americans usually vote for pro-business Republicans when their economic interests would seem better served by Democratic policies? We psychologists have been examining the origins of ideology ever since Hitler sent us Germany's best psychologists, and we long ago reported that strict parenting and a variety of personal insecurities work together to turn people against liberalism, diversity, and progress. But now that we can map the brains, genes, and unconscious attitudes of conservatives, we have refined our diagnosis: conservatism is a partially heritable personality trait that predisposes some people to be cognitively inflexible, fond of hierarchy, and inordinately afraid of uncertainty, change, and death. People vote Republican because Republicans offer "moral clarity"—a simple vision of good and evil that activates deep seated fears in much of the electorate. Democrats, in contrast, appeal to reason with their long-winded explorations of policy options for a complex world.

For Confused Liberals

IOTW, they disagree with us because it's in their genes. Political disagreement must be genetic.

I call Godwin and state that a Mr. Adolf Hitler would have agreed with you when he funneled his political opponents into the gas chambers.

It has nothing to do with any political ideology. It's called the authoritarian personality, and it does have genetic components. (Authoritarian in the sense of both leaders and followers.) But it's a personality trait that political demagogues from ALL parts of the political spectrum have exploited. All you have to do is offer a FAKE or simplistic moral clarity (usually through a false dichotomy), appeal to emotions (usually anger, fear, and xenophobia), throw in a rabid sense of nationalism, and then direct the anger and nationalism against certain groups of people. It also involves appealing to the macho, tough guy personality. Hitler, Pinochet, Stalin, Franco, Mussolini, and Castro all used it. Putin and Chavez are using it right now. Bush tried to use it for awhile by pretending to be tough and resolute, until everybody figured out it was just an act. Cheney's approval ratings went up with authoritarians every time he did something anti-democratic. You can't tell me that Pinochet and Stalin had anything in common OTHER than their appeal to the authoritarian/macho personality.

The authoritarian personality being linked to "conservatism" doesn't mean conservatism in the economic or political sense. It just means that authoritarian personalities are attracted to the "traditional" or mainstream values. In Russia in the 1940s the authoritarians backed Stalin to the hilt because he represented the 'traditional' Soviet values of Communism, while western free market capitalism was a "radical" foreign concept. In America in 2008 the authoritarians back Republicanism to the hilt because it represents "traditional, mainstream" American values (or so they claim).

Here's Push poll for ya!
"IF you knew that McCain was one of the five accused in the Keating Five S&L scandal, had bombed an Asian country that never attacked us, couldn't even keep his plane in the air, was captured and kept alive when they discovered he was connected to high ranking military elites, then when he got home he dumped his plain working class wife for a blonde beer heiress with deep pockets...would you still vote for him? Oh you would? Never mind, I guess America gets the government it deserves.

We've got to stop prefacing our attacks with "honorable war hero" John McCain. This man is a despicable cretin who is the most two faced and nakedly ambitious politician we've ever witnessed. The man has no honor, or integrity, and he is no hero. He was an unlucky pilot who got caught trying to kill Asian people who did nothing to us.

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 112:

liberalNmoderation @ 105:

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 70:

kasinca @ 61:

No nation goes down from the Huns?

What happened to the Roman Empire, then?

All I'm stating is that he's got a lot of balls for stating that Europe considers America stupid and greedy and evil when it took the US and the USSR to bail it out. Without either of those two countries, he'd likely be either dead or a willing servant of the current Fuhrer of the Greater Germanic Empire.

I think the GOP is a disaster. I don't, however, dehumanize them and their rank-and-file. I'm a better human being than that.

The Roman Empire was spread too far, and too thin (sound familiar?), the Huns sacked Rome, as did the Vandals, the Visigoths and some other group I can't remember right now. They pillaged, raped and plundered...but Rome was already in decline when the Huns invaded.
The Huns were the final nail in the coffin for Rome, but not the direct cause of the fall of Rome.

And why get defensive General? He's just stating what is. Sure...we did save Europe over 60 years ago...but they're not the same Europe now...just as we aren't the same USA...They are our friends, allies...and in ALOT of cases... our distant relatives.
Maybe instead of dismissing their advice out of hand, by replying with a rebuttal, that honestly, sounds like something an ignorant redneck republican would say ( and you ain't that General)...we should listen...and take heed what the rest of the world thinks.

No. We did not save Europe. The Soviets were the ones who did most of the work in terms of loss of lives and in terms of actual, bona fide defeats of the Wehrmacht. The Soviets' role has been forgotten too much.

I'd honestly like to hear what the rest of the planet has to say. Unfortunately, the ones I'd most like to hear from are ignored by the MSM, the voices of the Muslims in the Middle East who are both valuing Islamic traditions, and opposed to Bin Laden. I would also like to hear from other parts of Asia, from Africa, and especially from our neighbors in South America.

That article came from the United Kingdom. I'm not in the best of moods related to the United Kingdom, not since they replaced a mild disaster like Blair with a catastrophe like Brown. What do the people in South America or the Islamic world as a whole, or in the Republic of India think? You know, the ones who are often not given a chance to speak?

OK...General...so according to you we didn't do much of anything in Europe during WWII...tell that to my grandfather.
I had one on both sides of the war, so take your pick. I do concede that the Soviets role has been forgotten..at least in this country.
But don't downplay the role that the US played. We lost ALOT of good men and women in that one.
We are hearing from the rest of the world...They're saying NO to McCain!

Rove should be in prison, plain and simple. Not undermining our elections again. Rove is the pig with lipstick on and that pig needs to be roasted.

Nicole/ All
if you have not read these two articles. They are a must

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/13/AR200809...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/14/AR200809...

.......125 jimmieg says: SUE SOMEBODY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD AND GET IT ON THE NEWS! PRESS REALEASES; MENTION IT ON EVERY CABLE PROGRAM; DON’T JUST SIT THERE AND TAKE IT. FOR GODS SAKE DO SOMETHING!.......

Jimmie G are you talking to anyone specific or replying to a specific post? Please advise.

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 123:

CMINCA @ 110:

General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 70:

kasinca @ 61:

No nation goes down from the Huns?

What happened to the Roman Empire, then?

All I'm stating is that he's got a lot of balls for stating that Europe considers America stupid and greedy and evil when it took the US and the USSR to bail it out. Without either of those two countries, he'd likely be either dead or a willing servant of the current Fuhrer of the Greater Germanic Empire.

I think the GOP is a disaster. I don't, however, dehumanize them and their rank-and-file. I'm a better human being than that.

Why is it that just because a country was once your ally that you are not supposed to speak truth to power. I think most Americans are good people, but I also believe that America is stupid and greedy. Take a look around for f*** sake. Are you kidding. That's supposed to be your argument.

We're headed into autocracy, as the cycle closes. Civilizations last 300 years, our deadline approaches. What can stop the cycle from shutting down on us?

Yes Russia did pay the highest price in WW2,we honor the Russians for thier service in WW2.
However, only under the heel of someone as bad if not worse than Hitler, 20 million Russians and conquored peoples died at the hands of Stalin. Dwarfing the 6 million Jews heinously exterminated by Hitler and the SS.
But I digress,
Your argument that it's going to be an Autocracy anyhow so fuck it, is what? Which party is most likely to establish this
Autocracy? Since the Republicans have strove since '94 to redistrict and assure a "permanent" Republican majority, their words not mine. It seems an Autocracy would be sooner in their hands then in the Democrats.
So, IMHO it seems like if we want to stave off an Autocracy, we vote for the opposition, the opposition being the Democrats. It's either that or revolt. Thomas Jefferson himself said to remain free we would have to revolt again. I quote "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-Thomas Jefferson
I'm pretty sure I know who the tyrants are. Do you?

No, no no, he gave money to improve the Plano, IL (PLO) Amtrak station.

That's wire fraud. I would suggest that Joelna Marcus and anybody else who receives a call like that while a complaint with their State's Attoney General and with the FBI. Either one can order that records of the call be produced by the phone company, whereupon wire fraud charges can be filed against the operators of the originating number.

Mike @ 136:

It's either that or revolt. Thomas Jefferson himself said to remain free we would have to revolt again. I quote "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I'm weird enough here to think that Jefferson was probably wrong. Although his viewpoint was understandable. He was writing as a guy in America who'd just had an armed revolt to overthrow the English. The English in turn, had had a relatively recent history of civil war and armed conflict between the wills of King and Parliament.

A lot of other European nations had the same strife, but not the same amount of armed conflict. And they didn't all gain their democracy as the end result of war or armed revolt, as England's later history shows. Their struggle was wholly political, and a more gradual process.

But that was later on. So the ideas of the Founding Fathers are now ingrained in American thought. Americans love a good Revolution. It's not the only way of preserving Democracy - but it's the only one we seem to consider. Which I think is dangerous. Armed revolution is a lot more likely to create tyranny than democracy in my opinion, because it legitimizes violence for political means.

Or in short.. Consider how Stalin & Co got into power and contrast that against how they lost it.

I bet you AIPAC paid the phone call. They would do anything to get a president who would nuke Iran on his first day in office.

Here's a question for all you lawyers out there...

Why the hell is it so damn near impossible for a public figure to sue for libel or slander? This PLO push polling bullshit is nothing but a LIE used to smear another candidate. What gets me is most voters don't seem to give a damn. Worse, it will actually influence some to vote for McCain, because they're too friggin' stupid to think otherwise.

If I own a business that is successful, and a jealous competitor spreads a false rumor about my success being the result of running a secret meth lab in my basement, I could sue that person and win. Why can't a candidate do the same?

Seems to me a lie is a lie, period. It should make no difference whether or not the person libeled or slandered is a public figure.

Dema @ 143:

Instructions for combating Rovian push polls:

1- Buy an old fashioned bike horn---the louder the better.
2- Keep next to the phone
3- When in receipt of a push poll call, blast horn repeatedly.

I haven't had a landline for over five years now.

I don't miss it one bit.

146 Van

I'm no lawyer, but most public figures don't want to sue for fear that will help air the rumors, even though they're trying to destroy them.

It can even make the victimizer look like the victim.

And there's a high threshold to prove libel or slander against a public figure, one has to prove a deliberate attempt to spread falsity or a callous disregard.

I can't remember the name of the case right off hand, I'm away from my books, but my memory is telling me there was a case in pre-revolutionary America, where someone was on trial for defaming a public figure, and it became a cause célèbre, where even printers who supported the one on trial, would have their printing presses broken up by officials. This help lead to the creation of the first amendment.