No Red America, No Blue America, Just One America
By nonny mouse Friday Nov 07, 2008 6:00pm
We on the C&L team received an email from conservative poster on the blog, which said:
"I am a conservative who spent one evening responding to posts on your blog. I mentioned then that I would support Obama if he won, even though I was supporting McCain's campaign. I feel it was my duty to send my congratulations to our next president through you and your community, since I used your forum to enter into a spirited debate. I will honor my pledge to respect Obama as our American president. I certainly intend to exercise my first amendment rights to try to persuade him and others away from policies that I oppose, but I will be respectful of him and his office. I will also reprimand others who fail to show such respect.
I do not plan to return to this site, as I got so engaged in the vigorous debate that I lost track of time, and I missed saying prayers with my kids and tucking them in that night. We have added our new president to our prayer list. I assure you, we are not praying from a sense of self-interest. We only pray that he be granted the wisdom that is necessary to successfully execute his duties in a way that leads our country to greater peace and prosperity.
I believe it is un-American to wish ill upon anyone in order to gain some advantage. I want America to reach her greatest potential; therefore, I want Obama's presidency to be the most successful in history -- until the next president is elected, whichever party that person might represent, then the next president, and so on.
Who knows -- perhaps I'll end up voting for Obama in 2012. I will remain open to that possibility.
Please share this message with your community."
So I asked John Amato if I could use that email as an intro for a post. I want to take Obama at his word, and make C&L possibly the first leftwing blog to actually try to WELCOME our conservative readers. To all our conservative readers, I’d like to know your thoughts about being a conservative, how your life has changed under Bush, what your hopes for the future are with Obama, how you think liberals could help reach out to conservatives (and vice versa) to help heal the huge gapping rift between us without either side having to sacrificing their opinions or principles. I really want to do exactly what I've been hammering on about over the past couple of years, find common ground to foster healthy debate over differing opinions.
Because something I witnessed truly moved me –I watched McCain’s concession speech, and was saddened by the booing when he congratulated Obama, called him a good man, and looked forward to supporting him as our President. He more than once raised his hands in the attempt to rebuff those who jeered, but the months of maligning his opponent as a scary, un-American, possibly even terrorist bogeyman are not something that will be so easily switched off. That Frankenstein monster McCain’s campaign created has a way to go before it dons a tuxedo and top hat and puts on the Ritz. When I then watched Obama’s victory speech, I was moved by his praise for McCain, calling for unity, to be seen as a president for all the people, both on the right and the left… and by the crowd cheering in response to those words, many in tears of joy and gratitude. There was no sense of conquest over an enemy, no feeling of imminent retribution, no hatred, no vengeance. No booing.
The campaign of fear lost to the campaign of hope. This was no small feat. We are a nation that has over the past decade or so become habituated to the tactics of fear, of division, of derision, of entrenched hostility and zealous antagonism between the left and the right. That so many chose hope over fear during a time of acute economic instability and such bitter division is an acclamation of an American spirit I honestly had worried might have been irrevocably crushed.
I couldn’t be happier to have been proved wrong. Some on the extreme right are still nervously chattering their messages of fear-mongering, warning us against the dangers of a Democratically controlled government. But less and less of their former conservatives followers are listening any longer. What those on the extreme right are really worried about is that now that liberals are in the controlling majority, we will do to conservatives what too many did to us for so long – treat them with contempt and hatred and tyranny.
If we do, then we will have proven ourselves to be unworthy of that change Obama’s message of hope has brought to America. We will be no better than those who would divide this country between ‘real America’ and ‘fake America’. Of those who would question dissent and honest debate as being unpatriotic or supporting terrorists. Of imposing our views and principles on others at the cost of our civil liberties and Constitutional rights.
And I’m not the only liberal to miss spirited debate with those conservatives still valiantly defending the reality based community, such as Gergen, Powell, Christopher Buckley and the like.
'There was a time when conservatives were, in my opinion, wrong about everything, but you could interpret facts differently from then and be right without necessarily dismissing them as insane. I really hope we can get back to that kind of honest debate. It was intoxicating.’
Right on, Blue Gal.
There are no ‘red’ Americans. There are no ‘blue’ Americans. There are only Americans. We have – as we did in the scant few months after 9/11 – a short but precious window of opportunity to rebuild both our nation and our good standing in the world. Let’s not make the same mistake twice and squander it out of fear, or greed, or revenge, or ideology, or bigotry, or any other ignoble reason. We are better than that, as we as a people have proven, by electing by an overwhelming majority a man of principle, eloquence, passion, intelligence, equanimity and – yes – progressiveness.
So I’m calling on my fellow liberals at C&L to take our President-elect at his word. I want C&L to be the first progressive blogsite to do what needs to be done – reach out to those conservatives who share more of our values than not; to welcome them to a forum of honest, and respectful debate; to share their hopes and dreams and ideas with us so we can make America a better place to live for all of us.
Starting here. Starting now.
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If the conservatives I work with and know are any indication, I don't think this is gonna happen yet. If at all.
Moderates maybe.
There's still plenty of haters out there.
Nice sentiments though.
the dickheads at my P-O-W won't talk to me.
phukem!!!
Your co-workers won't talk to you because "the colored terrorist won" ??
I'm not surprised by anything at all when it comes to right wing. Only it sounds like high school. I'm not talking to you because you didn't vote for me as Hall Monitor.
I know I learned a lot about my co-workers this past week. Not good things, either.
F**k conservatives. I've been called communist, comsymp, pinko, secular humanist, left-wing/counter-culture/McGovernik, moonbat, cheese-eating surrender monkey, socialist, Marxist, unAmerican, anti-American, and/or pro-terrorist for 40 years by liars, hypocrites, bullies, criminals, fascists and abominations who daily use the Constitution for toilet paper and would turn my country into a fascist theocracy. I've even been accused of looking French, whatever that means. F**k 'em. They started a violent culture war in the late 1960s, so let them suck on it for at least four years. Maybe then I'll let them reach across the aisle without chopping off one of their diseased hands.
I'm getting lynching emails right now that have been forwarded ten times. The Hate-Fest on right-wing radio barely paused after the election and continues as we speak. Just go to Red State or Freeperland to see that rightwingers are first; stupid, and second; bullies and cowards. They're scum of the earth.
Rightwing conservatives have supported the most despotic regimes and dictatorships throughout history: the rightwing communists under Stalin, Hitler's Nazis, Mussolini's Fascists, the hard-liners in Iran, the Taliban and al Qaeda. And now they support the rightwing Republican regime. A connection?
It was the conservatives and right-wing Tories who supported the British during the Revolutionary War and turned American revolutionaries in to be hanged. If it were up to conservatives, we'd still be an English colony.
Don't be dulled into thinking that all is well and we can all 'make peace' and go back to sleep. They'll take over again and next time they won't relinquish control, they'll stomp you with their jackboots.
Moderate conservatives need to get a brain and see what the rightwing have done to their Party.
A very good friend of mine from the Navy is currently serving in Afghanistan. He's a really good guy -- born and raised in small town Iowa, college grad, married with 5 kids. He and his wife are active in their Catholic church and are very conservative -- not disgustingly so, but, well, they are very Catholic. They also voted for Bush twice.
They both voted for Obama. He told me that they both thought America needed a change.
Well here's the thing,
I voted for McCain for fundamental reasons. Under Obama, the Bush tax cuts will expire and my taxes will go up from their current level. Under Obama, He will hit me with another tax because I am in that magic number range. So with just those two items I will be taxed and taxed again.
Now what are my options, pass it on to the consumer or lay a couple of employees off to make up the difference. These are very substantive reasons why I can not support Obama or his policies for the next 4 years.
As for moderates, please take them, the Republican party will be rebuilt and we will be back with a far stronger candidate(McCain was definitely not my first choice) The reason the party is in disarray currently is due to the moderates trying to reach across the aisle, etc.. Nancy Pelosi said that the Democrats would bring civility and integrity back to Congress....what a joke, their ratings are lower than the Presidents.
Keep these numbers in mind 52% to 46% popular vote, many battleground states were barely won. We will be back
Was listening to Rachel Maddow on the way home from work this evening, and she had the dude from 538 dot com on, and he pointed out that the presidential vote count in Alaska was about 30% lower (so far) in 2008 than it was in 2004. I checked the 2004 results on CNN.com, and found that 311,808 total votes were cast. So far in the 2008 presidential election, however, only 216,688 votes have been counted. That's a difference of 95k votes, or 30%. You'd think with an Alaskan on the ticket, there would be a much larger number of votes this time around. Could there be 95k+ absentee ballots yet to be counted? Convicted felon Ted Stevens has a 3,353 vote lead at this piont, but if 30% of the votes have yet to be counted, his lead could evaporate and the tide could turn in Begich's favor.
Where are all the missing votes?
As of this afternoon, 538 and Brad Blog were the only ones commenting on this. I look forward to learning more.
As to the main point of this thread, while the Mouse might be correct, it's more up to John. And if his past behavior is any indicator, I wouldn't be too hopeful.
To the effect that vote theft will be vigorously pursued in the new Justice Department.
Wouldn't be at all surprised if those votes turned up somehow.
I said it...
I was really gladdened by that email, and appreciate that the editors at C&L chose to post it.
I am saddened that the sender will not be joining the blog on a regular basis. I hope that there wasn't anything I personally have ever said that chased that person away.
President-elect Obama ran and won on a campaign of unity and bipartisanship, and I respect and embrace that belief.
No one loves a rigourous debate as much as I do. Civility, openmindedness and an acceptance of facts are all I've ever required of those that disagree with me. I'm far too old to not understand that there is little chance of changing anyone's mind. But, if a debate opens myself or the other person up to the idea of looking at something from a different perspective, than...well...to coin a phrase...mission accomplished.
I hope the poster comes back. I really do.
I love this kind of thinking. I gave Bush my support when he was elected even though I had not voted for him. It was his to lose, and over the next 2 years he did, but I believe it is an American's duty to support the President if the President will do his part.
But, if a debate opens myself or the other person up to the idea of looking at something from a different perspective...
And this kind of respectful debate has the added value of humanizing both sides to one another. That's exactly what we need; problems don't get solved without it.
The focus has to be on just that--solving problems, not destroying one another or being destroyed. In this way, Obama comes in with incredible good will, both domestically and abroad. He truly could be a transformative figure--the president of ALL Americans, not just those from his party or who voted for him.
I couldn't agree more. Progressives have a unique opportunity to live up to the title.
From what I have heard and read, the Republicans are chomping at the bit to attempt to derail Obama as they did Clinton.
Are the Republicans the "Loyal Opposition?" If so, they must work with the Democrats in power. The quest of dead-ender Newt Gindrich to be be the RNC chair tells me that more of the same shenanigans of the '90s are going to be replayed.
Delay, obstruct, smear and await the next election, that has been the Republican strategy for the last 32 years.
Perhaps. Newt is definitely a guy who focuses on destruction.
You know what I'm waiting to see? How many Republicans/Conservatives wind up in Obama's cabinet or as his close advisers. This would go a long way toward pre-empting those who live by "fear and smear," on either side.
because then we'll here - "we knew Liberals can't run the government - they need help from us because they don't know how to lead..." blah, blah, blah and so on and so on. THIS IS A CENTER-LEFT COUNTRY - don't believe this we're center-right crap - they've lost and are grasping at straws. Obama himself is a centrist - I am a Liberal and Progressive - so are Dennis Kucinich, Bernie Sanders, and Ted Kennedy. We've seen what putting Repugs or what passes for them these days in positions of power can do - destroy a nation (several, actually). I'm tired of fighting - I'm tired of always having to respond to the bullcrap that the right wing nuts throw out - I'M TIRED OF IT. Putting repubs is positions of power in the Obama administration only serves to give them back power that We the People took away from them during the last two elections - BECAUSE THEY DON'T DESERVE TO HAVE THAT POWER. "Moderates" that really understand what's been going on will join us - other than that, I see no hope for the others. They will always vote against their own best interests and believe the lies because it's easier - the decisions are made for them - they need to be LEAD, not REPRESENTED like we Liberals and Progressives. We understand the Constitution and the way our government is supposed to work. They don't.
...at least in the beginning. they are going to fight everything that comes across the table until they figure out that its working, than they will jump on the band wagon so they can take credit for it later.
Nonny Mouse, this is a beautiful piece of writing and a beautiful sentiment.
During the campaign, Barack Obama repeatedly stated that he felt we needed to be more active diplomatically in order to be more respected, safer, and better informed about the world. This can only be true domestically, as well.
We face enormous challenges, not just nationally, but globally, as well. If we are going to surmount them, we have to find within ourselves a willingness to cooperate rather than falling into demonization of those with differing views.
I grew up with conservatism all around me. I came to the conclusion that I didn't agree with the viewpoint, but my relatives and friends remained, well, my relatives and friends. We have got to find a way to work and live together.
As Obama noted--I think wisely--we may not ever be able to resolve the hot-button "culture war" issues that divide us, even within our own families. So let's take the best of our mutual ideas, find common ground where we can, and start chipping away at the big problems we have to confront.
Thank you for taking the lead on this topic.
The criminals have to be put on trial first, clean up THEN talk.
Go look at and read the C&L archives, the last eight years of Republican criminal misrule has been horrendous.
I live in a very conservative area, but it went for Obama (albeit barely)- many "recovering Republicans" voted for him.
I am trying very hard to be positive, open, and welcoming (and not attack folks who are at least admitting they are conflicted). Some folks are obviously rigid and not ready/able to listen. I just tell them (with a smile) that dissent is patriotic and American, and that I will repect and listen to their points AT LEAST as respectfully as they listened to mine 5 years ago...
I live among the reddest areas on the new map in Western Arkansas. There are some liberals, progressives and moderates that tend to vote Democrat, but we have to huddle in the corner and away from the others to have our conversations. Many of us are nearly afraid to reach out or speak out.
Being in small community doesn't help. For example, during the primaries my daughter was told by a teacher that Obama was a Muslim terrorist.
This year she was told that Obama wanted to change the American flag. (It had to be another adult, my daughter is only in the third grade and I've been around her classmates and none of them are that sharp or that bright to pull a con like that.)
Once I explained to her and showed her the pictures of the Ohio university flag, she understood. I'm proud of her. She stood by her own convictions and was the only one in her class to vote for Obama. She even tried to convince her friends.
I love Arkansas, but there are a lot people here that vote because of fear (whether it's race or sexual orientation.)
I live in Springdale and My 6th grade stepson came home from school and told Me that his teacher told him Barrack was a muslim now he does go to a private x-tian school his real fathers family not my idea but non the less I was shocked
What can you do?
I'm going to stick my neck out here and say have a serious talk with him. You know what to say. The truth.
Recently I sent a letter to the editor of my local paper echoing a similar concept. I thought I would share it with you. It was entitled "Change the Conversation:"
Our country is facing disruptive challenges and changes that require us to let go of old patterns of thinking and behavior. Our efforts to address these challenges often fail because we end up paralyzed in partisan finger pointing that makes meaningful dialogue impossible. As a result, we treat symptoms while the deep systemic issues that need to be addressed remain hidden behind our individual and collective blind spots.
When any culture faces challenges like we face today, resistance to the needed change manifests in some form of fundamentalism – a commitment to a narrow belief system that denies the veracity of any other perspective. Today we are mired in three forms of fundamentalism – political, religious, and economic. These are our collective blind spots.
Look at the patterns of conversation on these pages. In our letters we spend all our time blaming and pointing fingers at those who don’t subscribe to our personal ideology. It is the fault of Democrats, Republicans, Liberals, Conservatives, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Immigrants, Corporations, and on and on. Is it any wonder that we find ourselves in crisis?
Lincoln said, “A house divided cannot stand.” His words ring true today. I don’t want to play this game anymore. I remember that moment of unity we experienced after 9/11. We were truly one country. The collective wisdom of that country can solve the problems we face.
Does this resonate with anyone? If it does, write your own letter of unity to this paper. It is time change the conversation.
The key for us is our willingness to change the conversation - you are correct that some conservatives may not respond positively. It doesn't matter - the key is to build momentum in the right direction.
I'd gladly write a letter such as the one you posted.
this aint redstate, where they ban you at the drop of a hat
the only time we ever got into flame wars is with trolls...and thinking conservatives are not trolls
but blogging and debate should never get in the way of family...that is much more important
I'm gonna call bullshit here. I'm no conservative, but if you start voicing an opinion on C&L that differs from that of the heard, the heard attacks. You personally may be different, but many aren't.
troofers, paulbots, and there ilk
Can't do it. Sorry.
*snarky comment blahblahblah* there heard *snark off*
I am one of the un-heard here: no one lsitens to me. Hyuck hyuck hyuck.
I'm afraid that the new registration requirement has discouraged those opposing voices from engaging here. Perhaps they just need time to recover from the shock.
even though he's been a bastard to me.
He probably thinks I've been a bastard to him.
Peace dennis... I apologise. Forgive me?
I'm going to bed.
But I'm not going to forget your comment here, m_k. Trust me. :D
Yeah...it'll be all boring a shit around here, won't it?
Its just that there are some people I can't imagine being, uhm, nice to others all of the time.
Hell, I try to be civil, but I can be an asshole if I don't watch myself very closely. I don't post half as much as I could. Lately I cancel as many comments as I submit.
have been biting my fingers tips lately. On the plus side, it's much less painful than biting my tongue.
I saw on morning Joe today Scarborough already attacking Obama saying that the media's mix-up with Emanuel was insight to how badly Obama was going to run the country. The media's mishandling and basically getting it wrong (but had it in the end) proves how Obama is going to mishandle the country?? Wow- sore loser?
And for the conservative blogger...umm you don't get a say.
"I certainly intend to exercise my first amendment rights to try to persuade him and others away from policies that I oppose"
Conservative policies have ruined this country. Policies which you no doubt believe in. Not only are we culturally and educationally behind the world, we are now economically behind the world. Is that the conservative super policy? Everything remains the same forever- change is wrong unless it's rolling back the clock? Get real.
After all the scandals (more than Clinton I think) caused by conservatives and all the the failures we are supposed to give you a platform to speak for fairness's sake? I do not think so. When you are wrong- you are wrong. It's like letting someone preach it is raining outside when it is sunny just to be fair- enough is enough.
in every possible way.
A Bush sycophant and anti-Democratic bully until 2006 midterms... then somehow Joe started to move into his "Bush is f***ing up" stage... which would last up until the General Election when Joe returned to his normal duties, erasing any hint of decency or fair-mindedness I thought maybe he had acquired.
He's a ratings hack, pure and simple. And loves to hear himself talk.
He was nice. A lot of our regular posters were mean.
It was a cool thing for this guy to write. It makes me feel less like everyone who was the Thugs aren't all like Ann Coulter or Glen Beck, which I know is true, anyway. It's been a long 8 years, and even though I'm Nader supporter, I want with all my heart for Obama to be the real deal. And I want him to succeed.
I remember, after 9/11, thinking we had the world on our side, ready to be with us shoulder to shoulder. I felt if we behaved in a humane, noble manner, we could go a long long way to make this a better world, we could look at the incident and have a national epiphany.
But it didn't go that way. Instead of building on OUR capital, it was squandered -- wasted by fuckers who did not know the value of such a priceless thing -- good will.
We are being given a second chance. Let's do it the way it should be done. The only way it can be done. Together.
the world on your side. And the world, I might add, has been waiting for an excuse to admire America the country as opposed to individual Americans. This election has been a giant step toward restoring credibility. There is much to do and the possibilities are once again endless.
But I need to see a little incentive coming from the right.
I too believe we need to work together and progress to a point where fear and divisiveness are no longer a factor guiding our lives.
But I'm twice bitten. And I need to see some respect before I give it back.
After what this admin has done to this country, I'm not going to hold my breath.
I'll let them make the first move. Then maybe I'll make nice.
Fool me once,eh, er, um. Fool me twice, you can't fool me again.
Let them rebuild the bridges they burned.
the full-spectrum American support he received -- from pretty much every Democrat or non-Republican I knew of.
We all know this. We all thought we were acting in good faith -- doing exactly what we were being asked to do -- shed all partisan feelings and come together.
But who knew that the Neocons actually had a WELL-PLANNED STRATEGY for "divide and polarize", and had no intention at all to use the positive spirit of America coming together in crisis.. but rather they were setting the table for trying to create a permanent majority -- and snuff out the Democratic party.
Thus: fool me once .... etc
I would have to go so far as to say that I can never trust a conservative Republican politician, or his Ari-Fleisher-like spokesperson/demonizers again. I'll cooperate for sure - but I will never again for a moment believe that they ever have an agenda that includes bridging the gaps in Americans and building a more perfect union.
How many times do we have to extend the olive branch, only to be beaten over the head with it? I applaud the original poster for his attitude, but I see him as a rare exception. We're stronger now. We see and recognize duplicity better than we used to. Along with that, some of us lost our innocence. Well, so be it. I'm not trusting the bastards again.
I am so very glad you posted this. I'm a long time reader but this post was why I registered for an account.
If we can learn anything from Obama and his campaign, it's that dirty tricks are losing their pull and leading a classy campaign through and through can win out. I am so very happy Obama won and even though there are tons of people in McCain's camp that did some not very nice things, I hope people also remember that these people don't represent the entire party and all of their supporters.
So instead of calling names and insulting (and I know, they've done more than their share and I'm sure in moments of passion, I've probably been guilty of doing the same to them), let's try to make peace.
A friend of mine whose a Republican made an interesting comment. After she congratulated and was very graceful about Obama winning, she says she's where we were and that she's scared. That may seem absolutely crazy to some people, but think about it. Instead of laughing at her or thinking she's nuts, I'd rather find out the reasons why. She's not a bad person and she's no dummy. We all live in this country, let's work towards peace and like Obama said he would do, listen to those who disagree even if we do disagree.
Let's not stoop down to those during this campaign that did things we'd all find reprehensible and take the high road like Obama. It's better for everybody.
Man, I so agree with this.
however, those of us that had watched Bush as governor knew
he was BAD news. Also, the fucker didn't win, he was handed the
first election and they stole the second. I don't know about you, but
that scared me and it wasn't the what might happen fear, it was the
I can't believe that I don't live in a democracy anymore fear.
I'd also ask, afraid of what? People tapping your phone without a
warrant, the presidency assuming dictator-like powers, White House
staff refusing legal warrants/subpoenas and going essentially lawless? Oh, those have already happened. Unless you've been listening solely to Faux the last eight
years I'm not quite sure what's left to fear.
"Reward your friends and punish your enemies."
--John F. Kennedy
"...and bang all the hotties"
sage advice if I've ever read it! :D
The election is over
The results are well known,
The choice of the people
Has clearly been shown
So lets get together
And make differences pass
I’ll hug your elephant
If you kiss my ass!
:)
Yep!
abso-fucking-lutely
:<[)
if you don't mind I'd like to use this in one of my posts on a right wing blog with due credit to the philosopher Lafingas, of course. Major LOL!
It should be public domain by now! :-)
Actually, I tried to explain my thoughts about being a Republican and a moderate conservative whose party had moved away from him and why I was supporting Obama here a week or so back and the first reply I got was one questioning my motives for being here as well as the manner in which I was trying to express my thoughts (just a working class high school graduate here).
The other called me an Uncle Tom for some reason only God might know and made references to not working in the big house instead of the fields anymore if I didn't toe some kind of line.
Decided pretty much that there are haters and on both sides and went back to Huffpo and the other sites and never came back to see if there were any other responses. Not sure what to make now of an open invitation to do what I was basically trying to do then.
If you've been mistreated, I apologize.
The thing is, There have been many, many Trolls who come here just to insult us.
They could care less about our political positions Tom. They hate us for being who we are.
It takes a little time to gain credence here. Just like anywhere else.
If your willing, you'll find there are people here that are too.
Perhaps it might be best to try and engage first instead of default "ZOMG TROLL!!!"
nonny mouse has it right.
Of course, I've only commented here a few times, so I have no credence.
How do you engage someone who starts of with
" You Libs" or You Dims"
You completely missed my point.
And you're right. You have no credence. Like respect,
That is earned.
For the troll who said.
N***** over and over and over and over.
He said it at least ten times.
That's all he said.
Obama is a N*****.
How do you engage someone like that?
Or why would you want too?
This is just one example of many.
Now, what do you have to say?
Here.
I don't think the Uncle Tom crack was aimed at you, but at Michael Steele, the subject of the original post. Reason- that comment wasn't a reply to anything you had written, but a stand-alone comment.
it makes you more believable.
That's what I meant with credence.
Tom makes some good points though.
My question is" What has the left ever done to deserve such hatred?
We stood up for what we believe in...our core principles. We did not follow blindly when we were told it was unAmerican to question anyone in an authority position...the very antithesis of what being American should be about.
Yeah we all know all of that. That's why we're here. That's what this place and places like this are all about.
I would think a better response would be,
Civil Rights, Social Security, Cleaner environment, Medicare, all around making America a better place to live.
For some weird reason, they hate us for that.
Looks like we may need to get rid of the Department of Homeland Security.
DHS has got to go.
very fascist sounding. As for killing off the dept...Hear Hear.
The sentiments in the post are admirable, if not a bit naive!
Have you tried trading perspectives with the religious right? They are "right" and therefore they needn't be honest! But that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep trying I suppose.
John NEVER "censored" anyone. He had to institute a banning policy back in, what, 2005?, which was geared toward trolls (and the nasty, I know, I've been on the receiving end of that one...sorry again Nicole) more than anything.
From what I've seen, John has ALWAYS allowed the other side to speak their mind, so I don't see this as a change, but a re-affirmation of his original policy.
Keep doing what you do John...it's working and we're better for it.
[Deleted. It cuts both ways, Uncle Joe. Please don't lay the bait. Thank you. Site Monitor]
As a conservative Christian in the eighties I pleaded with my friends (who were Christian enthusiast's) to not elect anyone in the "name of the number six, three score and six"(666) just for principal to the Bible's sake. They ignored their own teachings. They said Ronald(666)Wilson Reagan wasn't the man. But now, 30 years later those same people have allowed corporate devils to corrupt this country. They now "kill in Christ's name". They now have more prejudice than ever. They now point fingers at the others for what they do. And they openly use "Christ's" name in vain. They are sneaky. They dress right but spew vile words. Hatred, selfishness,greed,vanity,all of the treasures of hell come out of their mouths. And now, after what they have allowed to be done to this great country, they want to be friends. Empty words. I MUST TRUST THEM FOR THEIR WORKS, not their words. 11 million jobs lost. Two wars they can't complete in "6" years( a perfect number). Record foreclosures. 11 trillion dollar debts to the country. Treasonous activities in high places. Highest oil prices in history, greatest distribution of wealth in history. Bankrupting Americal. I'M KEEPING THEM ON SHORT LEASHES. TRUST IS GONE. BURNED ONCE IS MY FAULT. BURNED TWICE? SHAME ON YOU. E-N-O-U-G-H! "Be aware", the Christ said. Be alert. Their plan is to destroy this country. Ask "Flush" Limbaugh.
They have already started to threaten! Crocadile tears. We should "man-up". This ride isn't over.
God bless America and Obama. God bless us all,everyone! We might forgive. But only God forgets!
they would kill christ for advocating peace and love.
I just ain't buying it!
aren't thinking people - they thrive on negative emotion and a misplaced idea that if wrong can win at any cost, wrong is right. Might makes right. They would throw the dude who wrote the nice letter under the bus, and brand him as weak or worse.
The Dems tried to work with the erstwhile (R) majority, only to find that they were laughed at and derided for not having the stones to live up to their principles. Working with the likes of Gingrich, Delay, Issa, Frist, and the rest of the (R) cabal was a lesson in abuse.
Do not appease these people. Fight them for every inch of ground. Destroy them if you can.
If we do not aggressively pursue indictments for the very real crimes committed by those in power during the past 8 years, we have already squandered our recent gains (look at what happened when Pelosi and Reid said that impeachment was off the table).
Stop being weak.
is to be gained by this? For the foreseeable future the Republicans are likely to be engaged in a civil war trying to sort out what principles they really stand for. All the Democratic government has to do is deliver good government which they can now achieve without much interference from the Republicans. There is a lot to do and moderate Republicans can be enlisted in the coming days to get it done.
Hey you!
Sorry to disagree with you (somewhat, I agree with most of what you said, but...), we need to, as a country, bring charges against these criminals to send a message to any future administrations that what these people have done, and have gotten away with (thus far) will not be allowed or acceptable. Pelosi screwed the pooch big time on that one by taking impeachment off the table (because Bush is the face of what impeachment is for). Lied us into war. Stole how much money by funneling it to cronies.
No, this administration should not get off scot free because this does nothing but put a seal of approval on any criminal behavior which any future Republican thug (or dem thug, for that matter) might think about inflicting on this (and other) country (countries),
Look for e-mail reply tomorrow. I did not mean to imply that any criminal actions should be ignored but there are some moderate Republicans who can be engaged (think Hegel etc). I don't think looking for a battle with the whole crew will be helpful and lord (FSM) knows the world is looking for a little leadership right now. I don't think Pelosi ever had the votes to make impeachment a real possibility and doing so in the midst of war would probably have had us congratulating President McCain on his landslide victory.
Look forward to it!
No, Pelosi didn't have the votes and I am fully aware that nothing would have happened - BUT - and I think this is an important but, it would have started investigations and we, the American people deserve that. Hell, the world deserves it! I think that alone would have put the kibosh on future criminals thinking they could walk all over our constitution and fuck each of us in the ass without the benefit of consent or lube.
will be investigations into many things most especially the politization of Justice Department. That was perhaps the most dangerous precedent set by the Bush administration. Even if no one ever does a moments time in jail it must be exposed and the people involved shamed so it doesn't happen again.
...but that will accomplish nothing. The folks who perpetrated this crap on the US and us have no consciences, no shame. Those who committed crimes, i.e. broke the law of the land, should be prosecuted and if found guilty by a jury of their peers, do the time!
If we are to be a Nation of Laws, then we must uphold the law for everyone at all times.
Yes, America deserves the truth, and those responsible for this disaster deserve to be held responsible. I don't know if you heard Richard Clarke on Keith Olbermann when Clarke suggested that unless those responsible admit to their complicity, they should not be allowed to participate in society. Clarke recognized that trying an ex President and his Vice President and administration is a dangerous precedent. Yet, those people should not be allowed to enjoy the benefits of participating in our society until they testify at a truth and reconciliation hearing with a judgement rendered upon them. Personally, I think it is a good idea.
At the same time, I would be very happy to see KBR and Blackwater forced to give back their profits while their CEOs are put in the slammer.
I don't think it's possible- not for either side. That type of politics only results in two entrenched, hyper-ideological camps.
And, if you hadn't noticed, the GOP is doing a good job of destroying itself without much help from us. Want proof? The current Congress is polling lower than any previous, yet the GOP lost seats in both chambers.
Sorry but I’m not ready to make nice until the criminals that started illegal wars, cheated elections, destroyed the constitution, killed over a million people, all the time robbing the country blind and destroying the economy, are brought to justice!
The moderate Republicans... welcome aboard and fight the good fight. Those that support the powers that have worked to disgrace us all; keep trolling around, change is a long way coming for you...
Every now and then you get the real thing. We're seeing, in this post-election fallout with Sarah Palin, that a number of people are looking to define themselves not just by who they normally associate with (in the case of the emailer, with the Republican party), but also by what they don't associate with. It's hard to know in which category of conservative that poster is. I would guess he is a moderate -- fiscally conservative in his principles (even when the GOP policies and behaviors are actually the opposite of that), but maybe socially fair-minded.
In which case this person may well honor the statements he's making about supporting our new President.
I doubt that one of the hardcore "25 percenters" (who still stand by Bush, who still think he's not merely a good President but a Great President) would ever take the time to write such an email. In fact they would not take the time to enter into any kind of spirited debate on issues, policies, preferences.
So, I will take this guy at his word -- and thank him for expressing his support for the new President-elect.
He should know, also, that those of us on the liberal side of the fence are not necessarily going to be in favor of most of the policies Obama pursues -- and that we too have to walk that fine line of being a good citizen -- supportive of our President, while still advocating for policies we feel are important which a President may not support.
Sure .. any rank and file conservative who wants to work together to make this a 'more perfect union' .. come on down!!
But .. for the Grover Norquists, the Rush Limbaughs, Sean Hannitys, etc, etc .. NO WAY!!
Grover Norquist is an Enemy of the State: "I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub."
And since our Government is "of the people, by the people, for the people," Grover Norquist is an Enemy of the People.
Their "Conservative Movement" needs to be "reduced to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub."
They are anti-democratic and anti-American and this should NEVER be forgotten.
Absolutely BRAVO!
I'll second that BRAVO!.....we must never let our guard down,these neocons that hide behind god and flag are dangerious.
A list of assholes who will be around to attack Obama
...none of these folks are True Conservatives. They are "neo-cons", kinda' like neo-Nazis, only uglier.
True conservatives may prefer smaller government, but they also prefer Peace & Justice.
The main deal here is that the conservatives are the ones that wont want to play ball. I think that us liberals would be very willing to throw an olive branch but the conservative mindset is not one of playing well with others. I'll look for something that somebody wrote right after the 2004 election and get back to you if I can find it.
I have to agree with you again.
The really sad part is that such a small group in the GOP dictate to the rest of them how to feel. And sadly, a large portion of them buy it.
This reminds me of the time when Ted Kennedy was diagnosed.
I went to a GOP blog to lurk and read their comments.
ugly.
I'm not interested in compromise. I'm interested in crushing the conservative movement until it's buried as a stinking rotting corpse in history. Sorry but I've listened to way to much abuse to make nice now.
Amen to that!
Anyone who even thinks of trusting a conservative at this point needs to have his head examined. They are all degenerate traitors who must be run out of our country--and I say that with love.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBoOqysiLFo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLxTpsIVzzo
I wish I could be the "bigger" person and forget the last eight years of smears and fact-free attacks not only on my party but on my person, but I just couldn't live with myself.
I am all for debating conservatives, but few seem to remain. Until they return, if indeed they do, I'll be making sure in my own way that the Malkinites, dittoheads, etc. are driven back to the idealogical caves from which they sprung.
thanks Nonny
I am so tired of the partisanship.
I was a little shocked at John's post thanking Malkin. I dont see any reason to rub things in peoples faces. We have differences but we have the same country. If Obama is truely about working through those differences then a change must come.
I dont expect black to be white or Israel to love Palestine, just some civility would be nice for a change.
No Red America, No Blue America, Just One America
Puke colored?
Honestly, I think there's always been space, maybe with a few bumps, for honest, thoughtful conservatives. There just haven't been many, certainly not in power. I've lost track of how many times I've written that I wished the sane conservatives, the practical and rule-of-law crowd would take their party back over. I know I'm far from the only one. The authoritarian conservatives are dead-enders, and there are plenty of obstructionist Republicans out there. They're not offering an olive branch, and it would be foolish to pretend they are. They don't to set the agenda anymore, either. But to all the sane and sensible crowd, by all means, welcome to the conversation.
Long time reader, first time poster. Your comment above fired me up to actually post on your excellent site.
"There are no ‘red’ Americans. There are no ‘blue’ Americans. There are only Americans."
There is another kind of American. I have no PC label, or euphemism to cloak my hatred of this kind of person, so I will call them what they are.
Right Wing Americans.
They are masters of double-think, lies, self-delusion and selfishness. They see only what they want to see, and they see anyone who disagrees with them as "the enemy".
It is pointless to discuss anything with the Right Wing American. And we progressives have for so long been trying to reach out to them. To extend the olive branch. To find a "middle-ground".
My friends, that time is OVER. Do you image you can sit down with a Hannity, a Leiberman, or an Ailes and have a reasoned discussion, or even basic mutual respect? No, you can not.
I have always tried to live my life by the phrase "I may not agree with your opinion, but I will defend with my life your right to have it." But these selfish morons only know the phrase "My way, or the Highway".
It is time to STOP reasoning with them. STOP bending over backwards. STOP trying to be reasonable.
[deleted - C&L does not condone advocating violence on this site. Sitemonitor] BUT, we can NOT have a discourse with ppl who accuse us of being anti-American, not supporting the troops, who dare to say that they love America more.
And without discourse, there is only fear and naked force.
Words be damned. Middle-ground be damned. Discourse and understanding be damned.
Welcome! Congrats on jumping into the fray!
I have a very hard time with this after repeatedly be labeled anti-American, unpatriotic, and that always evil LIBERAL! I personally feel vilified and as far as I am concerned, fuck them (not other regular American's as much as the media that drives them.
I find it very, very hard to simply let bygones be bygones. They wanted to destroy us. I am a proud liberal who had to use the term progressive as to not be thought of as some crazy person.
No...not ready to let go of this. Not by a long shot.
No shit.
This reminds me of my brotherinlaw. He says he's not a Republican.
He's a Conservative.
This guy hated Bill Clinton with every fiber in his body.
His whole side of the Family were the same.
I'd agree with you, MsJoanne. But they aren't all like that.
I used to live in a red county (on Tuesday we went blue for the first time in a Presidential race since '64!), so I've got a lot of friends who are lifelong Republicans. A few of them are dittoheads, but most of them simply see liberals as being too expensive. And the latter are beginning to see the light- that, in the long run, Reaganomics is much more harmful than an increase in taxation.
Now the anti-choicers are a whole different story....
The whole liberals as being too expensive is bullshit.
Reagan borrowed and spent...to the largest deficit in history until Bush 2 out borrowed and out spent.
They are framing us...and the likes of Rush and that ilk are winning that frame.
I long ago took back the liberal label as one I embrace.
I address my wrath towards those who insist that I am stupid for my support of a democrat, that I am not a real American from real America. That we are good or bad, period.
Fuck them long and hard.
Someone above said it very well...I never voted for Bush (1 or 2, but this is specific to 2) but he was my president so I initially supported him. It didn't take him long to make that go away (something like two months, actually).
Nope, no playing nice for this kid. I am and have always been a real American, and a patriot. I also have not always been proud of what was done in my name. I spoke out against my government. THAT makes me patriotic.
many fools i spoke to had the 'dems tax and spend' as their entire argument and were completely incurious. anyone who uses labels is already lost.
my county went blue. Kent County, MI, home (and now resting place) of Jerry Ford and the DeVos family (of AMWAY and- by marriage- Blackwater fame). A lot of those Republican friends voted for Obama. There's hope.
But it will be. Just clarifyin'....
why Democrats,and Obama in particular, didn't point that out at every opportunity. When was a dollar spent healing or educating a child ever wasted?
When was a dollar spent
healing oreducating a child ever wasted?Uhm, the names George W. Bush and Sarah Palin do come to mind.
Okay I'm out now. My weekend to work. GNA!
Now That Was FUNNY!
A most palpable hit! Good night Andy K.
On Americablog where John was talking about his insurance and how a nice little loophole now has him having to spend more than $1000 out of pocket for meds that cost a fraction less elsewhere. In France, he was able to see a doctor, be in and out in minutes, for a whopping $100 (including x-rays). When I was in Canada and ran out of one of my meds, the cost to buy it there, as a foreigner, was half of what my copay is here.
To answer your question: beats the hell out of me. But if you want to talk about a country which lost its way, your query sums it up nicely.
ever had more flaming bags of dogshit left on his doorstep than this one and yet, I am glad to see, health care remains a top priority.
it continues to be a top priority.
It SHOULD be a right...not an option for those who can afford. Especially since we just lost a quarter of a million jobs (in one month) and more than 17 million people are currently under employed or simply no longer looking because they cannot find work.
Flaming bags of shit, indeed.
Interesting you're using the name Polybius. He was a Greek Historian, sent as a prisoner to Rome, who helped develop the political balance or the balance of power theory so influential on our Founding Fathers.
Gun sales spike following Obama win
Nov. 6: Texas gun stores reported a huge surge in sales following the presidential election. KXAS-TV's Scott Gordon reports. (NBC News Channel)
I mean nothing, especially to this board, but my reason for not extending an olive branch might be shared by others here.
I don't mind a different ideology, but (in a debate context) I won't stand for someone who believes things that are obviously false. And with today's republican party, that means I won't stand for any republican.
It's possible to have a conservative ideology without believing things that are obviously false. But such a conservative would have stopped voting republican years ago.
I am a conservative and have met blind idiots. Do not bunch us all together. Sterotypes were bad then and they're bad now.
then you have left the republican party, at least until it gets a new class of leaders. I stand by my lumping of all republicans, because "the current republican party can govern well nationally" has become an obviously false statement.
Poignant and well-thought out. I thank the emailer.
I would point out that this same mentality of acceptance be used in regards to gay marriage and the Prop 8 issue.
If conservatives were able to de-compartmentalize their belief system from their politics, this wouldn't be an issue.
The fact is if your church doesn't want to accept gay marriage, no qualms, done deal. But to make it the law of the land that certain people can not access the same privileges and/or rights is discrimination. Period.
...but they are prayin' for the gay to be cast out of ya',
yew betcha' !!
THESE FUCKKKERS
I'M NOT BUYING IT. A mild-tempered troll is a troll. If they come here talkin shit, I'm nailing them. If they are supposed to be intelligent, then they should demonstrate that they use their intelligence at least for their own better interests and likely for the better interests of the society in which they live.
do not come here to defend boosh chainey LIEberdouche, any neocon, or demonstrate any pretext of false principle.
stay the fuck away.
if you are not about a solution, don't come here whining about Obama.
we care here. so if the 'sensitive' conservative does not come back and does not want to come back, then he/she is the most successful concern troll in history. they are laughing while C&L dedicates an entire thread to this troll's feelilngs.
nice freaking trick. and I thought John was good. that guy/gal takes the cake.
i wouldnt have questioned your motives
your party has moved away from you
why dont you call people who purport to be intellectuals, like prager and medved and ask them why they continue to support people like palin and bush....who do not represent true conservative values
It didn't used to be this divided. If my candidate didn't win, it was "Oh well, next time." The president was always the president of everyone. Now it seems like a tragedy when the "other side" wins the election. It's too bad that it's come to this. But I think a large part of the reason is the infusion of religion into government. Some very intolerant religious leaders seeking power want to be kingmakers. Church and state should be separate. By the way, I am a church-going Christian. The other is conservative talk radio. They whip up the anger and don't appeal to the best in us. Too bad conservatives and liberals don't have a neutral forum to talk to and listen to each other. Hopefully Obama can help bridge the divide.
Back in the day a republican could be president and the country would still be afloat when they're done. Now that it can't, we must be divided to be patriotic.
They do not change and voted for their party even after they destroyed our country. Not "real Americans" thinking "country first".
They are already blaming President Obama for the economy.
They will be in the minority for a long time and to be ignored.
Gun sales spike following Obama win
Nov. 6: Texas gun stores reported a huge surge in sales following the presidential election. KXAS-TV's Scott Gordon reports. (NBC News Channel)
I would like to pass on a VERY GENEROUS first paragraph of an e-mail that I received from my sister in Minneapolis just last night:
"Well your team won. Not too big of a surprize. I hope he is one of the best presidents we have ever had. Maybe he can bring this country together and give us some of our pride back. Other countries seem to like him. This country certainly needs something."
The thing that makes this remarkable is that my sister and I have been exchanging an ever-more heated and cantankorous corruspondance over issues and policy differences for the last two months or so. She is a DEVOUT pro-life conservative Christain... and I have ascended to the position of black sheep of the family because of my pro-choice liberal scandalous support of THE ANNOINTED ONE. I'm sure it was difficult for her to type the word, congratulations, in the subject line... but she has always been a peace-maker at heart. I just wanted to share her sentiment.
if so...then she is a hypocrite
not trying to turn you from your sister...but if the right thinks hateful rhetoric is all a game, then they need to cut it out
they are far from "conservative"
the religious right isnt conservative
this past week, they pushed through bills in a number of states banning gay marriage...where is that a conservative principle? a true conservative doesnt care what an indidual does as long as it does not directly effect him or her
where in conservative principles does it say that it is a good thing to change a state constitution in order to make sure a certain group does not gain a certain right?
where in true conservative principles does it say that one is allowed to force ones beliefs down another's throat?
it is we who have allowed these people to be called conservatives, and those that dont care as much about social issues, moderates...it is the moderates who may very well be the hard right conservative
as for how religious they truly are....did you hear most of them get upset when obama talked about being "his brother's keeper"?
cain's sin was that he didnt feel he was his brothers keeper...that he really only had to care about himself...that it was ok for his jealousies and hate to get the best of him
what truly religious person does not feel that it is a good thing to be ones brother's keeper
so...the religious right is not truly religious....nor are they true conservatives....so what are they?
why...they are the new liberals
I want to see the people who talked this nation into an illegal war and occupation of Iraq punished. That will never happen, but until it does, I can't just make nice with people who supported Bush and his policies. Nope.
including me...sad to say
despite the fact that i was an avid bernie ward listener, as well as a thom hartmann listener, and both said something was wrong with the intel, and the war in iraq would be illegal and immoral...i couldnt believe that any president would cook the books just to create a permanent majority in dc, and set up a smoke screen so that his pals could rape the treasury
i didnt think anyone could be that evil and cynical
my god, he was sending off boys and girls to die
i was wrong...bush is that evil
im embarressed that i got excited at each report where they said they had finally found the wmd...only to discover that it was absolute bs
so dont hate me....try to understand me
and don't hate you. What I meant was people in government who supported Bush and his crimes. And the corporate controlled media. And the people who STILL think the invasion of Iraq was justified. I want to see those people see Bush and Cheney, Rove and Rice get what's coming to them.
This is something that some right wing idiot wrote after the 2004 election when some liberals were trying to make nice:
"Get over it! The majority of Americans WON and the rest of you need to firgure out that you are not the majority. This site is old hippies, drug doers, drug growers, drug dealers and a lot of people who CAN'T live in the USA any longer. You know who you are and are about to be "outted". People who are not Americans have no right to say anything about who we chose to run our country."
I don't think the right wing want to play nice. Or maybe they don't know how to play nice. I don't know.
who are so petty and vindictive. I am liberal, progressive, and proud of that, but I agree with Nonny Mouse. Obama never got into the mud, he always took the high ground, and look at how much respect he has earned. I agree with the original conservative poster that it's not worth it spending time here. Progressives are supposed to be more welcoming and understanding and open minded, but some of the posters here exhibit the same black and white thinking that limits conservatives. It's just disgusting.
Well, bully for you.
Petty and vindictive for being called unAmerican and unpatriotic? Not REAL Americans?
Sorry, dude/dudette...that is neither petty nor vindictive to say that it is not acceptable and I am not going to just get that warm and fuzzy kumbayah feeling all over because they want it now, because I am tired of being called a hater of my own country.
How often, in the last three days, have we heard our country is center-right? Nope...do. not. forget.
Elephants are known for having long memories. This donkey does, as well.
In my lifetime the only thing I have seen consistent in the conservative 'character' is unbridled 'self-interest'. They have used economic verbiage, racist verbiage and outright total lies, living as if the ends justifies the means. Self-referential bullshit artists need not come here. I will enjoy puting them into the cuisinart typing machine.
How ya doin', sistah?
I am well, thank you. High tailing it the hell out of Texas tomorrow, and none too soon for my tastes.
And agreed with what you said. I call bullshit where I see it. That was my biggest beef with Dennis...the constant and relentless lies. I do not tolerate liars...not the tiniest bit.
Do you know what is disgusting? Fat pigs telling lies that start wars that kill millions of people just so they can fill their bank accounts. Criminals must be held accountable for their crimes!
how many NOLa victims are there?
how many died in 9/11?
Military Deaths By Time Period
Period US UK Other* Total Days Avg
Total 4192 176 138 4506 2057 2.19
these people condone or excuse murder and death by neglect. there is real damage to assess and respond to. this is not merely an abstract intellectual exercise.
many have died! many more have been bankrupted. some have been tortured in a manner that defies the geneva convention. we have prisons which rival the russian gulag of legend.
what is so petty and vindictive about bringing this to an end?
You sound petty and vindictive.
It's fun to think we can all come together under one big, loving umbrella again -- at least, it's fun until you listen to the viciousness continuing to be spewed at hate radio.
It's a lovely sentiment, but I'm reminded of Rudyard Kipling: You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din.
These people will spit in your face, and take joy in your suffering. Don't think for a minute they won't, but if you really think it worthwhile, head on over to one of their gatherings and try having a nice, rational conversation with them. Then report back. I'm all ears on that one.
but you cannot make him think. To paraphrase that great philosopher Jesus: the wingnuts we shall always have with us. Personally I rather enjoy engaging the nuttier elements on their own turf, though for some reason, I can never keep my posting privileges for very long. I would never presume to think, however, that they represent the entire spectrum of the Republican party (as much as they think they do!). I would like to see the return to collegiality that was once the hallmark of the US Senate. Wouldn't you?
I would like to see the return to collegiality that was once the hallmark of the US Senate. Wouldn't you?
This is what the GOP brought to the Clinton table. And it has yet to go away.
I think Obama will be able to make inroads (I hope he can, but when you have elected officials playing the My Way Or The Highway, Win or Lose game, well, we all lose.
best refurbished old saying I've heard in a long time.
from both "sides" and anyone at all --- with the possible exception of Joe Lieberman. Hey, Joe, I heard you shot your party down.
a great line. LOL
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