AM Joy focused on the latest from Michael Cohen.
"Michael Cohen seems to be involved in everything in Trump world. Cutting him off, as a layperson, doesn't seem smart," Joy Reid said to Jennifer Rubin.
"We also forget because there are so many facts, we forget the bad facts from a month ago or two months ago. He was involved during the campaign on the Moscow/Trump Tower escapade with Felix Sater," Rubin said.
"And involved in the Ukraine peace deal?" Reid said.
"Yeah. It's hard to think of something Donald Trump was doing that Michael Cohen was not involved in. And I think they've made a decision, if you can think of it as a rational decision, which is, 'he knows so much, we just have to ruin the guy,' Rubin said.
"'We have to make him seem like a complete liar.' That's short-sighted thinking because they're going to be corroborating witnesses for what Michael Cohen is saying."
"And he tapes people," Reid reminded her.
"Right. You won't tape -- he has 100 tapes, we learned. There are other people in these meetings. These people have left a trail of evidence a mile wide. The attack on him comes from their political philosophy, we're just going to ruin the people attacking us. It doesn't work in the legal realm because there are facts that matter and evidence that matters and there's a whole realm of documentary evidence that will support them. So, yeah, it's stupid but understand why they do that. They always operate this way," Rubin said.
"It's also -- they're not winning in the court of public opinion anymore either," said Nayyera Haq. "They expected that that would maybe supercede and prevail, get them through the next election but we're seeing his polling numbers drop among the people who helped him get elected. There's a very small narrowing, hard base that will be there. Millions of more people who are motivated and energized by the shadiness, if nothing else."